WI: A daughter for Charles II of England

[HRH Cecily]

This match is heavily questionable unlike the Portuguese one - if the York family has the same rate of kids surviving as OTL, the British bride is going to be looked down compared to OTL Imperial one, presumed more fertile. The dowry matters also matter.

Ah, okay, so the fate of the Hapsburgs is likely to stay the same then. Anne should probably still marry George, no reason why not, I'd think. With butterflies or less stress, Anne's three living kids might survive longer and could maybe make matches with one of George and Sophia Dorothea's kids and/or William and Elizabeth Charlotte's kids.

Regarding Edward - any time from 1664 to 1670 can work. If Edward is created say Duke of Kent in British peerage, in addition to his status of Prince Etranger in France, and it is known that the family is in good standing with British king, then Edward's eldest daughter may become the natural replacement for Madame once the first wife of Philippe dies.

I can't find a cause of death for Edward (he was only 38 when he died), so let's say he evades death for a little longer and is invited to England with wife and daughters by Charles around the time of Catherine's February 1666 miscarriage. He gets along well with Catherine and Charles, is made Duke of Kent, and dies after seeing his older two daughters married off but not the youngest.

I think so, though I think that this still can make other marriages of Edward's daughters go as OTL, even though their father is granted a British peerage along with his elder brother. At least the Conde match - the Brunswick one is in the air.

So with Marie Luise marrying Philippe, duc d'Orléans, Anne Henriette marrying Henri, Prince of Condé, Benedicta Henrietta, Edward's daughter who ended up marrying Brunswick, might make a better match here than OTL? Possibly another French match like her sisters? Or Charles' bastard, Charles FitzCharles, 1st Earl of Plymouth (1657 – 17 October 1680)?

August's wife can marry... well, some random domestic match, she was only important because she was the only one of right age of cadet branch of Hohenzollerns.

Gotcha, not really worth worrying about then.

 

[Titania's Rose]

So with Marie Luise marrying Philippe, duc d'Orléans, Anne Henriette marrying Henri, Prince of Condé, Benedicta Henrietta, Edward's daughter who ended up marrying Brunswick, might make a better match here than OTL? Possibly another French match like her sisters? Or Charles' bastard, Charles FitzCharles, 1st Earl of Plymouth (1657 – 17 October 1680)?

I could see Edward's British titles being passed down to Charles Fitzroy if Benedicta Henrietta marries him. Though this would require that said young man actually lives past 1680. Or that he at least fathers a son or daughter to inherit said titles through their mother.

Though I wonder if Benedicta Henrietta of the Palatinate might stand a chance at inheriting her uncle's British titles as well. Rupert of the Rhine was the Duke of Cumberland after all.

 

[Valena]

In OTL for some time Benedicta Henrietta was considered for position of Duchesse de Longueville, as far as French matches go. But with her sisters married at French court (courtesy of their mother, who would also be against Benedicta marrying a bastard) she may be used for grander match.
Her aunt the Queen of Poland considered marrying her to whoever is the successor of her husband on Polish throne.

 

[mcdnab]

Few issues with some of the above:

1) Charles' natural inclination for his nieces was a Catholic pro-French marriage however he went with William despite his distaste firstly to try and bring an end to the Franco-Dutch conflict (he had concluded peace with the Dutch a little before William was betrothed to Mary) - he also knew that the latest Dutch conflict in alliance with France had caused significant problems with Parliament. Anne's marriage was in part supported by Charles French ally because Louis saw the English and Danes as a threat to curb the Dutch navy. In the earlier period it was still very unlikely they would remain high in the succession - their father and both his wives had numerous issue there was always the likelihood on of the boys would survive - whilst an heir for Charles might allay the succession crisis of OTL and the fear of a Catholic succession it will not wipe out decades of entrenched anti Catholicism in England and Scotland.

2) If Mary and Anne want a dower they will have to marry to please Parliament - Charles was a bit of a skinflint when it came to cash - either of them marrying into the French, Spanish or Imperial royal houses will require a substantial amount (especially as in this scenario they are a little further down the succession order) Mary was awarded a large dower by Parliament on her marriage to William (though Charles was rather reluctant to pay it) - if she marries a Catholic and converts not a chance of that happening and the French or Spanish won't take the Lady Mary (her and Anne did not have the style Princess at this point) without a dower (it would also humiliate her at her new court).

3) Mary and Anne will not convert willingly - their characters and upbringing suggest both were ardent Anglicans (there was even concern Mary would be forced to convert to Calvinism on her marriage to William ensuring she had an English chaplain with her etc) - if they did not succumb to their father or mother's pressures in otl it is unlikely they would do so in an alternate one without changing their characters - it is also very unlikely that the French or Spanish courts would accept them not converting.

4) William of Orange at the time a marriage to Elizabeth Charlotte might have been considered was very much not in charge - he wasn't Stadtholder and was still facing off against the De Witt faction. Charles and Louis saw crushing the Dutch republic (with France gaining the southern low countries) and Charles hoped that William would be installed as ruler of a rump Dutch state - but no longer a threat to his uncle. He just wasn't a good catch for Elizabeth Charlotte - and her father was pursuing a pro-French policy as he rebuilt his family possessions. Given her father's poor-relationship with his uncle Charles I i doubt Charles II would have pushed him in a different direction - the Orleans match was also strongly pushed by the Elector's sister in law who lived at the French court with her husband Prince Edward.

5) Prince of Edward of The Palatine moving to England as mentioned above he had married Ann Gonzaga in the 1640s converted to Catholicism and remained at the French court as a Prince Etranger until his death in 1663 - so not much time to decamp to England (even had he wished to it would have been difficult given he relied on his wife's money which was based on her French inheritance - and there is no great incentive for Charles II to do anything for him at all.

6) If you want different matches and marriages they have to correspond with the politics of the situation - Charles was pro-French but his country and his parliament were not (something he reluctantly realised), his wife whilst Catholic was relatively popular but not above being subjected to anti-catholic attacks, William of Orange's motivations were initially in taking control of the Dutch States and protecting himself from the French (and his Uncle Charles) etc.

 

[Valena]

5) Prince of Edward of The Palatine moving to England as mentioned above he had married Ann Gonzaga in the 1640s converted to Catholicism and remained at the French court as a Prince Etranger until his death in 1663 - so not much time to decamp to England (even had he wished to it would have been difficult given he relied on his wife's money which was based on her French inheritance - and there is no great incentive for Charles II to do anything for him at all.

Yes. This is too far-fetched. But - speaking of inheritance - IF Duc de Guise dies before fathering any children, then Anna Gonzaga and her daughters are the most direct heirs (OTL the Guise title went to her second daughter).
But you are right, by 1670 William's fate was too undecided, it is unlikely he'll marry anybody before 1673 (his age of majority).

For realistic Palatinate PoDs, let's switch the betrothals between Wilhelmine and Frederica Amalia of Denmark - the two princesses are barely one year apart, so the PoD here is a matter of one decision from Queen of Denmark (who OTL organized the marriage for Wilhelmine) - Ulrika Eleonora is too young for this. Frederica Amalia in OTL was stuck in very unhappy marriage, but her husband fathered with her 4 children, the eldest one born in 1670.
The childless Duke of Holstein is interesting PoD in itself, as his younger brother, the Prince Bishop of Lubeck, was also childless.

 

[HRH Cecily]

1) Charles' natural inclination for his nieces was a Catholic pro-French marriage however he went with William despite his distaste firstly to try and bring an end to the Franco-Dutch conflict (he had concluded peace with the Dutch a little before William was betrothed to Mary) - he also knew that the latest Dutch conflict in alliance with France had caused significant problems with Parliament. Anne's marriage was in part supported by Charles French ally because Louis saw the English and Danes as a threat to curb the Dutch navy. In the earlier period it was still very unlikely they would remain high in the succession - their father and both his wives had numerous issue there was always the likelihood on of the boys would survive - whilst an heir for Charles might allay the succession crisis of OTL and the fear of a Catholic succession it will not wipe out decades of entrenched anti Catholicism in England and Scotland.

What I've been trying to figure out is if *Elizabeth is off the table for William, is William still likely to be married to Mary?

2) If Mary and Anne want a dower they will have to marry to please Parliament - Charles was a bit of a skinflint when it came to cash - either of them marrying into the French, Spanish or Imperial royal houses will require a substantial amount (especially as in this scenario they are a little further down the succession order) Mary was awarded a large dower by Parliament on her marriage to William (though Charles was rather reluctant to pay it) - if she marries a Catholic and converts not a chance of that happening and the French or Spanish won't take the Lady Mary (her and Anne did not have the style Princess at this point) without a dower (it would also humiliate her at her new court).

3) Mary and Anne will not convert willingly - their characters and upbringing suggest both were ardent Anglicans (there was even concern Mary would be forced to convert to Calvinism on her marriage to William ensuring she had an English chaplain with her etc) - if they did not succumb to their father or mother's pressures in otl it is unlikely they would do so in an alternate one without changing their characters - it is also very unlikely that the French or Spanish courts would accept them not converting.

Oh, I wasn't going to have either of them convert. I was thinking something along the lines of the Catholic Catherine of Braganza being allowed to practice her religion in England but knowing that her children would have to be raised in the Anglican faith situation but with a Protestant spouse for a Catholic monarch but I guess that is not likely to happen?

If Charles is not required to pay a large dowry (any?) upon his daughter's marriage to Augustus of Saxony, is it possible he would still pay for one of James' daughters in order for her to make the Catholic match he so desired?

4) William of Orange at the time a marriage to Elizabeth Charlotte might have been considered was very much not in charge - he wasn't Stadtholder and was still facing off against the De Witt faction. Charles and Louis saw crushing the Dutch republic (with France gaining the southern low countries) and Charles hoped that William would be installed as ruler of a rump Dutch state - but no longer a threat to his uncle. He just wasn't a good catch for Elizabeth Charlotte - and her father was pursuing a pro-French policy as he rebuilt his family possessions. Given her father's poor-relationship with his uncle Charles I i doubt Charles II would have pushed him in a different direction - the Orleans match was also strongly pushed by the Elector's sister in law who lived at the French court with her husband Prince Edward.

Do you know who would have been a good choice if Mary was not an option?

6) If you want different matches and marriages they have to correspond with the politics of the situation - Charles was pro-French but his country and his parliament were not (something he reluctantly realised), his wife whilst Catholic was relatively popular but not above being subjected to anti-catholic attacks, William of Orange's motivations were initially in taking control of the Dutch States and protecting himself from the French (and his Uncle Charles) etc.

Understood. Do you have some recommendations for Mary and Anne?

 

[Titania's Rose]

6) If you want different matches and marriages they have to correspond with the politics of the situation - Charles was pro-French but his country and his parliament were not (something he reluctantly realised), his wife whilst Catholic was relatively popular but not above being subjected to anti-catholic attacks, William of Orange's motivations were initially in taking control of the Dutch States and protecting himself from the French (and his Uncle Charles) etc.

Something to consider however is that Charles would have some leeway when it comes to his nieces marriages after his daughter's been betrothed/wedded to a protestant prince. Augustus of Saxony would give the nobility and parliament some sense of security for the future due to him being a Saxon prince and Saxony being the cradle of the protestant faith.

Sure, a Catholic match for either of James' daughters would not be popular but they'll get over it as soon as Elizabeth begins having children. A French marriage isn't really possible at this time and thus wouldn't fit any of Charles' plans. Marrying off one of his brother's daughters to a traditional (if Catholic) ally of England and the other to another protestant prince would likely soothe any fears that the people might have and would give Charles some of what he wanted as well.

Oh, I wasn't going to have either of them convert. I was thinking something along the lines of the Catholic Catherine of Braganza being allowed to practice her religion in England but knowing that her children would have to be raised in the Anglican faith situation but with a Protestant spouse for a Catholic monarch but I guess that is not likely to happen?

It's probably a lot more likelier for the Portuguese to let something like this slide due to relations with England. The Spanish definitely would not have approved of the bride keeping her religion. Mary would likely have to keep to herself and make sure to not bring up her own faith before the court. The Portuguese would also probably forgive this fault in their Queen if she were to fill the royal nursery with royal babes. Those children would be raised Catholic but Mary might have a moderating effect on the Portuguese court as well as on her own children.

What I've been trying to figure out is if *Elizabeth is off the table for William, is William still likely to be married to Mary?

Do you know who would have been a good choice if Mary was not an option?

This is honestly the hardest part.

Hmm. I don't think anyone's discussed whether or not Anne could marry William of Orange. She's only 3 years younger than William and could be used by Charles to replace her sister in the original match once he's decided to snap up King of Portugal for Mary. William would only need to wait a few extra years until she's old enough to marry.

 

[mcdnab]

A direct heir to the throne certainly removes the exclusion crisis of the 1670s but the population is largely rabidly anti-catholic - as were both Mary and Anne - Elizabeth is the younger of the three - in other words her betrothal is unlikely to be made and confirmed before 1682/3 at the very earliest and I think that early date is pretty unlikely - Charles was a pretty indulgent parent and i would think a betrothal much before her 15th birthday is very unlikely - whilst Elizabeth's betrothal and marriage will of course secure a protestant succession it won't be guaranteed until she is wedded, bedded and delivered of an heir of her own. Until then Mary and Anne are going to remain high in the succession. Charles and James might sneak one of them into a Catholic marriage but it is unlikely that they would manage both without significant issues and problems (and given the fact that in a tl with Charles having a direct heir James himself might not remarry and if he does he might chose a different second wife).

You also have the issue that in otl - there weren't that many Catholic husbands rushing to marry either Mary or Anne (and their place in the English succession was high and as their Uncle aged it was more likely there father would succeed) - in TTL they are further down the succession as well as the wrong religion making them slightly less appealing.

Augustus of Saxony is a pretty bad match - he is a year younger than his bride which means there is zero likelihood of him and Elizabeth being married in my view and certainly not before Charles II's death.

Charles didn't consider German matches for his nieces in part because they didn't bring him any advantage politically - he married

It is in my view most likely that Elizabeth will be sought by every obscure prince in Europe and Charles will be able to pick and choose.

The politics of the 1670s suggest that Mary will still be pushed to marry William of Orange - Anne might get more of a choice.

Something to consider however is that Charles would have some leeway when it comes to his nieces marriages after his daughter's been betrothed/wedded to a protestant prince. Augustus of Saxony would give the nobility and parliament some sense of security for the future due to him being a Saxon prince and Saxony being the cradle of the protestant faith.

Sure, a Catholic match for either of James' daughters would not be popular but they'll get over it as soon as Elizabeth begins having children. A French marriage isn't really possible at this time and thus wouldn't fit any of Charles' plans. Marrying off one of his brother's daughters to a traditional (if Catholic) ally of England and the other to another protestant prince would likely soothe any fears that the people might have and would give Charles some of what he wanted as well.



It's probably a lot more likelier for the Portuguese to let something like this slide due to relations with England. The Spanish definitely would not have approved of the bride keeping her religion. Mary would likely have to keep to herself and make sure to not bring up her own faith before the court. The Portuguese would also probably forgive this fault in their Queen if she were to fill the royal nursery with royal babes. Those children would be raised Catholic but Mary might have a moderating effect on the Portuguese court as well as on her own children.





This is honestly the hardest part.

Hmm. I don't think anyone's discussed whether or not Anne could marry William of Orange. She's only 3 years younger than William and could be used by Charles to replace her sister in the original match once he's decided to snap up King of Portugal for Mary. William would only need to wait a few extra years until she's old enough to marry.

 

[Valena]

if he does he might chose a different second wife).

He will. If James is not the heir presumptive, Mary of Modena is not marrying him (she married for the chance to bring England back into fold as Queen/mother of heir to the throne, no such chance as Duchess of York).

 

[HRH Cecily]

A direct heir to the throne certainly removes the exclusion crisis of the 1670s but the population is largely rabidly anti-catholic - as were both Mary and Anne - Elizabeth is the younger of the three - in other words her betrothal is unlikely to be made and confirmed before 1682/3 at the very earliest and I think that early date is pretty unlikely - Charles was a pretty indulgent parent and i would think a betrothal much before her 15th birthday is very unlikely - whilst Elizabeth's betrothal and marriage will of course secure a protestant succession it won't be guaranteed until she is wedded, bedded and delivered of an heir of her own. Until then Mary and Anne are going to remain high in the succession. Charles and James might sneak one of them into a Catholic marriage but it is unlikely that they would manage both without significant issues and problems (and given the fact that in a tl with Charles having a direct heir James himself might not remarry and if he does he might chose a different second wife).

So when Charles died in 1685, are you thinking it's possible he wouldn't have secured a match for his daughter? Or just that the confirmation of the betrothal has just happened?

Augustus of Saxony is a pretty bad match - he is a year younger than his bride which means there is zero likelihood of him and Elizabeth being married in my view and certainly not before Charles II's death.

Charles didn't consider German matches for his nieces in part because they didn't bring him any advantage politically - he married

It is in my view most likely that Elizabeth will be sought by every obscure prince in Europe and Charles will be able to pick and choose.

The politics of the 1670s suggest that Mary will still be pushed to marry William of Orange - Anne might get more of a choice.

Okay, so to get Augustus for Elizabeth, which I'm not committed to, it would have to be after Charles' death? Who do you think Charles would want for Elizabeth? If Mary and William still get married would it be around the same time as OTL or might it happen earlier/later? Also I think you got caught off and I'm curious where you were going to the end of that sentence.

He will. If James is not the heir presumptive, Mary of Modena is not marrying him (she married for the chance to bring England back into fold as Queen/mother of heir to the throne, no such chance as Duchess of York).

Right! Is James likely to marry again anyway? Would we see a domestic match? No Old Pretender in this TL?

I really appreciate all the input all of you have given me, I'd would like to be able to move forward though to see what else will change, so would like to get Elizabeth married and settled soon!

 

[mcdnab]

I would suspect that Charles would want a great match given his daughter's status as heiress presumptive to England & Scotland but whilst negotiations might have begun with any number of countries I think it likely that in 1685 at 16 she will still be unnattached (perhaps betrothed) - i also think he would realise that the heir to a foreign throne was not a good idea.

AFter Charles' death her marriage becomes a hot political potato with a natural pro-Catholic choice from her mother and uncle and her parliament encouraging and pushing a Protestant match.

Politically Charles veered towards France throughout his reign - it was this in part that poisoned his relationship with the Dutch - the 1677 marriage of Mary and William was part of a settlement of the earlier Dutch war and an attempt by Charles to broker peace between William of Orange and Louis XIV.

Anne's marriage to George of Denmark was encouraged by the French because Louis believed the English and Danish navy's would be a bulwark against the Dutch - it might be that instead of Anne the Danish push for Elizabeth and perhaps he gets Anne as the King is reluctant to tie his daughter at just 14.

in terms of a catholic marriage this is the only one i think might at a push be likely if you really want one - but he was short, family mental health problems etc but a good pedigree but Louis XIV's revocation of the Edict of Nantes in 1685 will make a catholic pro-french marriage very very difficult.

Louis de Bourbon son of Henri Jules de Bourbon, Duke of Enghien, and Anne Henriette of Bavaria (granddaughter of Elizabeth Stuart) b1668 - not a perhaps attractive choice given his looks and health but his English great grandmother might make up a little for his Catholicism to the English. In OTL he married in 1685 the daughter of Louis XIV and Madame de Montespan. He is probably the only really strong French candidate.

Any issue the Duke of York has by a second wife are going to be too young as are Elizabeth's Portugeuse cousins - and I think her Braganza mother would make a Spanish match very difficult even without the religious problems. I think James might have difficulties making a second marriage if he is no longer heir to the throne though he certainly will try.

A Hapsburg or Spanish match are going to elicit memories of Bloody Mary to the English I suspect which won't go down well.

In Protestant terms - the Palatine and Hannover are more obvious because there are existing family links - though there are no candidates in the Palatine - George of Hannover's brother's are obvious choices and will be pushed I suspect by their mother Sophia. They are penniless and will probably be more likely to accept playing second fiddle.

Don't forget that in 1685 Louis XIV is pushing for his sister in law's claim to the Palatine to be recognised so he might himself favour a pro-german alliance for the young English Queen as part of his hope that Elizabeth Charlotte's claims to her brother's holdings should prevail over the distant male heirs of the Palatine. This will have a major impact on the nine year war and will perhaps see switching alliances.

 

[HRH Cecily]

Louis de Bourbon son of Henri Jules de Bourbon, Duke of Enghien, and Anne Henriette of Bavaria (granddaughter of Elizabeth Stuart) b1668 - not a perhaps attractive choice given his looks and health but his English great grandmother might make up a little for his Catholicism to the English. In OTL he married in 1685 the daughter of Louis XIV and Madame de Montespan. He is probably the only really strong French candidate.

I think Charles would try to push the Bourbon match, being as you mentioned strongly aligned with France politically and by marriage, but would ultimately realize Parliament wouldn't go for it.

A Hapsburg or Spanish match are going to elicit memories of Bloody Mary to the English I suspect which won't go down well.

Absolutely agree.

Politically Charles veered towards France throughout his reign - it was this in part that poisoned his relationship with the Dutch - the 1677 marriage of Mary and William was part of a settlement of the earlier Dutch war and an attempt by Charles to broker peace between William of Orange and Louis XIV.

Anne's marriage to George of Denmark was encouraged by the French because Louis believed the English and Danish navy's would be a bulwark against the Dutch - it might be that instead of Anne the Danish push for Elizabeth and perhaps he gets Anne as the King is reluctant to tie his daughter at just 14.

This sounds plausible. Okay, so Mary and Anne would likely keep their OTL matches. Definitely Mary if not Anne.

Don't forget that in 1685 Louis XIV is pushing for his sister in law's claim to the Palatine to be recognised so he might himself favour a pro-german alliance for the young English Queen as part of his hope that Elizabeth Charlotte's claims to her brother's holdings should prevail over the distant male heirs of the Palatine. This will have a major impact on the nine year war and will perhaps see switching alliances.

So, maybe if Louis helped push the Danish match, he might encourage Charles to marry one of OTL George I's younger brothers or another German younger son especially if he accepted the Bourbon match wouldn't go through or would rather Louis de Bourbon marry his own daughter.

So Elizabeth's choices are the five younger sons of Ernest Augustus, Elector of Brunswick-Lünesburg,
1. Friedrich Augustus of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1661 – 1690)
2. Maximilian Wilhelm of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1666 – 1726)
3. Charles Philip of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1669 – 1690)
4. Christian Heinrich of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1671 – 1703)
5. Ernest Augustus of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1674 – 1728).

6. Louis de Bourbon son of Henri Jules de Bourbon, Duke of Enghien, and Anne Henriette of Bavaria (granddaughter of Elizabeth Stuart) (1668 – 1710)
7. Augustus, younger son of the Elector Johann Georg III and Anne Sophie of Denmark (1670 – 1733)
8. Charles, Duke of Mecklenburg-Güstrow (1664 – 1688)
9. Philip William, Prince in Prussia/Margrave of Brandenburg-Schwedt (I think this is who was mentioned earlier?; 1669 – 1711)

I would imagine that if Charles comes around to a German match and has Elizabeth betrothed before he dies, we would likely see Elizabeth married to one of the three brothers in the middle - Friedrich being eight years older than Elizabeth and Ernest being seven years younger. Charles might let Elizabeth choose a brother (also side note: Max and Ernest are the only two who have wikipedia pages? It is difficult to find more info than name and birth/death dates on the other four). I see her going for Max if only because he and Ernest are the only two with portraits.

Max as consort is interesting. OTL he and his brother Christian Heinrich were involved in a plot in 1690 after their older brother Friedrich died to gain back what they saw as their rightful inheritance, having agreed in 1864 to allow the family to begin primogeniture and thus not gain anything when their father died. Max was imprisoned for a year and then exiled from the Duchy of Brunswick-Lünesburg. Probably not an issue if he's married/betrothed to the Queen of England but he's certainly going to be a character, and I could definitely see him stirring up trouble in England (also King/Prince Max sounds quite jolly).

If a match is not finalized before Charles' death, I think James will try to push a Catholic match, though not necessarily the Bourbon one still. Catherine would probably also want her daughter to marry a Catholic, even hoping for a match back into the Portuguese royals, but might be pragmatic enough to come around to the necessity of a Protestant match. I think Elizabeth and Monmouth would be gunning for a Protestant match, and Elizabeth might have more freedom to pick a German Protestant prince of her choice if she promises the immensely relieved Parliament to marry Protestant. In which case, I think she might eschew her Stuart cousins and pick Augustus.

Augustus is also quite a character. One would hope he would know better than to cheat (openly) on his wife the sovereign Queen but that could also become messy (and interesting!). And if Augustus' older brother still dies as in OTL, we'll see the merging of Saxony and Britain, which also very interesting.

Coming back to titles, Philip was given the title 'King' while married to Mary I but given how unpopular he/they were, might the title 'Prince Consort' emerge long before OTL Victoria and Albert for *Elizabeth's husband?

 

[Vitruvius]

Just a thought, but what about Henry Casimir of Nassau-Dietz as a non-German protestant alternative? He was William III's paternal first cousin but not related to the Stuarts. He was also stadholder of Friesland and Groningen. I doubt William would be happy about being passed over in his cousin's favor, but maybe if Henry surrendered the Friesland Stadholderate to William? Maybe then a double marriage of Mary and William (like OTL) and Elizabeth and Henry. It would create a Nassau family alliance between the Netherlands and Britain without actually uniting the two countries.

Or alternatively Charles has a falling out with William and deliberately passes over him and through the marriage to Henry Casimir entangles the future British King in Dutch politics. Elizabeth's son would IIRC be hereditary Stadholder of two provinces but William would be non-hereditary stadholder of the rest. Could be interesting.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Max might be acceptable to Charles, but he's not going to be palatable to Parliament if he pulls his OTL stunt of converting to Catholicism. All of them AFAIK fought in imperial service (which was why Max converted, Sophia never forgave him for this IIRC). Christian was drowned in the Danube, while Karl Philipp was killed in action at Pristina. So all of them pursued martial careers in imperial service, though obviously the degree of success is debatable.

As to the title for Mr Liz II, he's going to be 'HRH, the Prince Consort, Duke of X'. Felipe II and Willem III were the only queen's husbands to get the crown matrimonial, in both cases on grounds of them being descended from a previous king of England (Edward III and Charles I), being foreign rulers etc. Anne's husband, George, although brother to the Danish king, was never addressed or spoken of as, 'Your/His Majesty, King George' (Otherwise OTL George I would've been George II), merely as 'His Royal Highness, the Duke of Cumberland'. Obviously, there isn't the annoying precedent of Willem III (which IMHO is why Anne didn't push for her husband to be king, instead mollifying him with the title of 'Lord High Admiral'), but I will point out that Lady Jane Grey had told Guildford Dudley that she would not make him king, only duke of Clarence (which caused an issue between her and Northumberland), so even if Lizzie pushes for her husband to be made Mr. Queen (not Oliver) then someone will point out that Mary I & Felipe II was an exception not a rule (but the thing with exceptions is that they can set a (bad) precedent).

 

[HRH Cecily]

Max might be acceptable to Charles, but he's not going to be palatable to Parliament if he pulls his OTL stunt of converting to Catholicism. All of them AFAIK fought in imperial service (which was why Max converted, Sophia never forgave him for this IIRC). Christian was drowned in the Danube, while Karl Philipp was killed in action at Pristina. So all of them pursued martial careers in imperial service, though obviously the degree of success is debatable.

Like Augustus, Max seems to have converted for political reasons, so ITTL I don't think conversion would be on the table for whomever ends up married to Elizabeth.

As to the title for Mr Liz II, he's going to be 'HRH, the Prince Consort, Duke of X'. Felipe II and Willem III were the only queen's husbands to get the crown matrimonial, in both cases on grounds of them being descended from a previous king of England (Edward III and Charles I), being foreign rulers etc. Anne's husband, George, although brother to the Danish king, was never addressed or spoken of as, 'Your/His Majesty, King George' (Otherwise OTL George I would've been George II), merely as 'His Royal Highness, the Duke of Cumberland'. Obviously, there isn't the annoying precedent of Willem III (which IMHO is why Anne didn't push for her husband to be king, instead mollifying him with the title of 'Lord High Admiral'), but I will point out that Lady Jane Grey had told Guildford Dudley that she would not make him king, only duke of Clarence (which caused an issue between her and Northumberland), so even if Lizzie pushes for her husband to be made Mr. Queen (not Oliver) then someone will point out that Mary I & Felipe II was an exception not a rule (but the thing with exceptions is that they can set a (bad) precedent).

I did not know about the descent from a previous king of England being the grounds for the crown matrimonial. Fascinating! That would entitle Max or another of his brothers who married Elizabeth and were descended from James I to the crown matrimonial as well, wouldn't it?

 

[mcdnab]

England had no crown matrimonial in law at all - the Mary I and Philip example was a) because Mary wanted it b) because the Emperor wanted it and c) because Parliament reluctantly accepted it - though the restrictions on Philip were quite considerable and he was merely to enjoy the title and rights of King during Mary's lifetime only - with no rights to succeed her at all.
In a tl with no other example - i would imagine there would be a discussion regarding the rights of the Queen's husband on her accession or marriage - much will depend on his popularity etc and whether he was demanding a rank - I have little doubt he will be granted a dukedom etc - this is of course before the introduction of the Civil List so provision for his household etc will be at the Queen's discretion and not Parliament's.

 

[HRH Cecily]

Okay, so let's go for Max.

In a tl with no other example - i would imagine there would be a discussion regarding the rights of the Queen's husband on her accession or marriage - much will depend on his popularity etc and whether he was demanding a rank - I have little doubt he will be granted a dukedom etc - this is of course before the introduction of the Civil List so provision for his household etc will be at the Queen's discretion and not Parliament's.

If Charles was alive to conclude the marriage arrangements, would he have determined what rank/title his daughter's husband had? What's a good title for Max?

 

[mcdnab]

It is interesting - Queen Anne's husband wasn't created a royal duke until 1689 when he was naturalised as a British subject and in part because of his decision to defect from James II to William of Orange. Up to then he used his own royal styles as a Prince of Denmark as did his wife. Of course it was likely if not certain that his wife would eventually succeed to the throne.

the styles of royal family members at this period wasn't rigid or as strict as today.

Any husband of Elizabeth may well opt to retain the titles he was born with intially - so Duke Maximilian William of Brunswick-Lüneburg - suspect that it will be decided to accord him a more formal British rank (if as is likely he becomes a naturalized Britain) - Rupert of the Rhine died in 82 - so his Dukedom of Cumberland is avaible and of course Maximilian is the Prince's nephew so would be regarded as an appropriate title. I suspect his eventual style will be His Royal Highness Prince Maximilian William (with no territorial designation), The Duke of Cumberland, Duke of Brunswick-Luneburg

 

[HRH Cecily]

How does this look for Lizzy and Max? 12 pregnancies, 9 live births, 8 making it to adulthood and 1 dying in his early twenties.

Queen Elizabeth II (b. 6 August 1669; d. 1739) m. Prince Maximilian William, The Duke of Cumberland, Duke of Brunswick-Luneburg (b. 2 April 1653; d. OTL 28 October 1726)
1a) Catherine (b. 26 March 1687; d. 28 June 1692)
2a) Elizabeth (b. 11 April 1688; d. 4 December 1773)
3a) Charles III (b. 11 May 1689; d. 7 June 1762)
4a) Maximilian (b. 20 January 1691; d. 17 November 1712)
5a) Miscarriage (1 July 1692)
6a) Catherine Henrietta (b. 14 February 1693; d. 14 December 1766)
7a) James (b. 8 July 1695; d. 11 February 1758)
8a) Anne (b. 31 October 1698; d. 22 July 1775)
9a) Miscarriage (4 May 1700)
10a) Maximilian Henry (b. 18 November 1701; d. 3 May 1783)
11a) Miscarriage (27 July 1702)
12a) Charlotte (b. 12 August 1704; d. 16 September 1782)

Who might Queen Elizabeth look to for a bride for Charles?

 

[Valena]

If there is no de jure clause against Catholic consorts, and if the political climate is anything resembling OTL and Liz is not as stubbornly pro-French as her uncle was, an Austrian archduchess is a go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduchess_Maria_Magdalena_of_Austria_(1689–1743) I think this one.

And even if she would favor French, there are plainly no Princesses of suitable age in French Royal Family. The Orlean girls may be rejected due to their mother born out of wedlock.