WI: A bureaucratic class in the HRE?

This seems like one of those things that might be tricky and require a few PoDs to work out, but which would have very interesting effects down the line. What if a system developed in the HRE by which the most promising young men throughout the empire were recruited into and trained for the imperial government[? It seems possible early on if you can find a way to use the lower clergy in a pipeline. Would such a system help the Empire centralize and weaken the feudal nobility? Obviously geography is still a hindrance, but a system like this could make it more possible to administer a substantial part of the empire more closely and link more of the empire directly to the imperial government
 
This seems like one of those things that might be tricky and require a few PoDs to work out, but which would have very interesting effects down the line. What if a system developed in the HRE by which the most promising young men throughout the empire were recruited into and trained for the imperial government[? It seems possible early on if you can find a way to use the lower clergy in a pipeline. Would such a system help the Empire centralize and weaken the feudal nobility? Obviously geography is still a hindrance, but a system like this could make it more possible to administer a substantial part of the empire more closely and link more of the empire directly to the imperial government

If the emperors win the investiture controversy I could see this happening with the Chruch. A much more nationalized structure would ensure a literate bureacracy of bishops and priests that would be much more loyal to the emperor than to the feudal lords. After all, who got them to their new position?
 
The question though, is how to replace the feudal system of government (or lack thereof) with such a bureaucracy.

Not saying it can't be done, but this would be a challenge while said feudal lords are still powerful enough to object to the Emperor deciding to mess with the system.

Risks being a rather nasty catch-22.

If you can overcome the feudal lords to set up a professional bureaucracy to run things, the empire (and emperor) benefits enormously from having an actual functional system of administration by trained men who are loyal to something besides their own interests - though it might have problems like the Byzantine bureaucratic class, those problems are a lot easier to tame with a strong enough emperor to impose his authority than a bunch of feudal lords who control the armies and wealth.

And a weak emperor...well, it can't be worse than what that meant OTL.
 
The Emporer could do it the way the Brits did in India. Start by putting a senior advisor into each court, this lead onto more bureaucrats being recruited who reported to this advisor.

My worry about putting junior priests in as administrators is what will happen when the reformation occurs, it will split the bureaucrats as well as the local priests.

A much better move would be to encourage "grammer schools" to train up literate non-clerical administrators.
 
I thought that's what the Ministeriales originally were? Only they were eventually subsumed into the feudal system and became lords themselves.
 
The Emporer could do it the way the Brits did in India. Start by putting a senior advisor into each court, this lead onto more bureaucrats being recruited who reported to this advisor.

My worry about putting junior priests in as administrators is what will happen when the reformation occurs, it will split the bureaucrats as well as the local priests.

A much better move would be to encourage "grammer schools" to train up literate non-clerical administrators.
That might work better-the reason I mentioned priests was more that they were well-positioned to seek out talent. Maybe a system where priests are expected to recommend some number of young parishoners for schooling at the imperial grammar school(s) as part of their duties, or perhaps a system where young students in ecclesiastical schools who seem bright but unsuitable for a ecclesiastical career are directed towards the imperial civil service?
 
That might work better-the reason I mentioned priests was more that they were well-positioned to seek out talent. Maybe a system where priests are expected to recommend some number of young parishoners for schooling at the imperial grammar school(s) as part of their duties, or perhaps a system where young students in ecclesiastical schools who seem bright but unsuitable for a ecclesiastical career are directed towards the imperial civil service?

I'd go for the second. How you'd determine who fits in that category, I dunno, but it seems like a good way to make use of the existing system without making the Church get disgruntled.
 
I don't know much about the time period, but does anyone think Charlmagne might have conceivably implemented such a system, with the right POD?
 
Not sure there were enough educated men to do it properly in his day.

Even later it becomes "merely" difficult.
 
As for the problem of suitably weakening the nobility, is it possible to have larger/more intense crusades? If you have an attack on Italy, say*, that could draw in many nobles. Combined with more intense fighting and a well-timed epidemic or two, this could take a lot of nobles out of the picture or at least keep them too busy to care about goings-on at home. The problem, of course, is getting the Emperor to stay at home.
*My friend and I have been batting around the idea of a popular sheykh leading the Normans (along a substantial part of the Kingdom's population) to convert to Islam and seek Ayyubid support, then having an initial tussle to secure their rule in the mainland spiral out of control. Not sure if this is remotely plausible, though.
 
As for the problem of suitably weakening the nobility, is it possible to have larger/more intense crusades? If you have an attack on Italy, say*, that could draw in many nobles. Combined with more intense fighting and a well-timed epidemic or two, this could take a lot of nobles out of the picture or at least keep them too busy to care about goings-on at home. The problem, of course, is getting the Emperor to stay at home.
*My friend and I have been batting around the idea of a popular sheykh leading the Normans (along a substantial part of the Kingdom's population) to convert to Islam and seek Ayyubid support, then having an initial tussle to secure their rule in the mainland spiral out of control. Not sure if this is remotely plausible, though.

It might, but it doesn't really address the issue at hand - which is the feudal system, not individual lords.

And I can't imagine a situation where Sicily is both Norman and Muslim. Interesting, yes, possible outside CK, no.
 
A bureaucratic class in the HRE?

Interesting Idea.
The big problem IMHO is indeed the feudal system, but as some already suggested, a short but brutal war might get rid of most of the nobility - like in France the battles of Crecy and the plague did within a decade.
With the nobility weakend and war a constant the HRE would have to rely more and more on mercenaries.
The best POD would be around 1500. There are the Hanse and the Fugger, both civilian organisation, both bureaucraticly organised.
(The Hanse was on the way out but still strong and the Fugger were at their height)
The Kaiser could see the opportunity - no nobles to tell him what to do but a functioning state thanks to more controlable civilan bureaucrats - strike a deal with them. Cities run with the help of the Hanse/Fuggers bureaucrats and under the direct control of the Kaiser. The now "ownerless" villages fall under the nearest city.
The still existing Aristocrats can either hide behind their walls until they as meaningless as the French nobility was, or they go for all out war against the cities and the Kaiser, which they will loose as the time of feudal armies was long over and they had no money to buy a decent sized army anyway. And this would mean the end of the feudal system in the HRE.
Over a relative short period, say 30-40 years, it could lead to a tighter bureaucratic controlled precapitalist state.
I do not think that absolutism was a possiblity, but a centralised state supported by a middleclass bureaucracy is.
However Marin Luther would ruin any progress unless the whole of the HRE becomes lutheran...which might actually help in centralising the state and increase support for the Kaiser among the lower class.
 
How about the Reichsritter - the Free Imperial Knights? They were immediate servants of the Emperor, meaning that they answered directly to him with no intervening lords, and to avoid being forced into vassalage to the more powerful local nobles and lose their rights they organised themselves into three Circles that worked together. They paid taxes directly to the Emperor and had some rather surprisingly wide powers in their territories whilst not being considered hochadel, high nobility, but instead lower nobility so weren't members of the Reichstag as lords. Seems like a perfect fit for your class of bureaucrats. They're already independent of local powers and answer directly to the Emperor, rely on him to stop their rights being infringed, and by being lower nobility they're kept out of the Reichstag and possible political intrigues. All you have to do is get their immediate status fully recognised before the Peace of Westphalia as in our timeline and you've got something to build on in my opinion.
 
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