WI 9/11 planes were shot down?

how will this effect the security of the peoples, how will this effect the freedom of the people?

would there still be wars in the middle east?

how will the people react to the government "murdering" hundreds?

Jeremy Bentham: "The needs of the many out wiegh the needs of the few."

NO CONSPIRACY THEORIES, or you will be made fun of mercilessly.
 
Ironically, the scenario would most likely see George Bush punished for doing the right thing instead of rewarded for doing the wrong. Without 9/11, the economic downturn of 2001/02 is going to be blamed on the government (who will try to pin it on Clinton with some justification, but little hope of success). Without ironclad proof of the hijackers' intentions, the events will shock and frighten the American people. Four hijacked airlines shot out of the sky on the say-so of some government or military suit. Hundreds of dead. It is worse than Oklahoma City!

Obviously, the loony left will go absolutely apeshit with this. The right-wing tinfoil brifgade will most likely be shocked out of its relative complacency with the Bush administration and may are likely to conclude this guy is worse than Clinton. Soon, it will be four *allegedly* hijacked airliners with *hundreds of American citizens* being *brutally shot down on the orders of Washington*. Would you really believe the 9/11 hijackers' story if a White House spokesperson told it to you? Especially once it included the usual amount of institutional CYA? The Democrats will neeed to do nothing whatsoever, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Bush can forget about expanding executive powers or prosecuting wars of choice. it's doubtful enough he'd get approval even for Afghanistan. Congress would not likely say anything stronger than 'we need to see all the evidence' and 'the international community must be heard', but the interwebs will be buzzing with Tonkin Gulf and Gleiwitz.

Ow. Ow. Ow.
 

stalkere

Banned
Yeah, right

The POD on this needs to go WA-AY back.

I mean, WHY would the airliners have been shot down? Until 911, the only airliners used as kamikaze weapons were in techno-thrillers -Clancey and Brown used it in stories, but the Powers-that-were actively discouraged even THINKING about the possibility.

I know from personal experience, because the one time I suggested it, in 1988, I received a 10 minute lecture from a senior FBI agent explaining to me why I was so interminably, excruciatingly stupid for even suggesting that ANYBODY, let alone Muslim terrorist, would crash an airplane into a building, let alone the stupid idea that Muslims would EVER conduct operations on US soil.

A very PUBLIC butt chewing, in front of the rest of the members, a few brave ones who told me that the guy was an idiot for chewing me out in public, but nobody would admit that my concerns were anything less than impossible.

Not to mention that the USAF was not in the habit of sending armed patrols up over US cities any more. Alaska and Hawaii are different, but with the possible exception of Gulf Coast Drug interdiction patrols, armed patrols were pretty much discontinued in CONUS after the end of the Cold War. The only planes flying "hot" were going to live fire ranges - and even then, they were often "blue tips" - solid slugs, not API or such. The AIMs were usually also blue tips - seeker packages, but no motors.

And ADA? - Gawd, other than at bases with ADA troops, there was virtually no ADA deployed in the US, let alone DC. I had a guy tell me, "Gee they should have shot them down with those anti aircraft guns around the Pentagon."
"WHAT anti-aircraft guns?"
"They don't have anti-aircraft guns at the Pentagon?"

I think there's a few static displays and monuments in the city, but aside from that, in 2001, the only AA capability that I've ever heard of was about 10 Secret Service Agents trained on Stingers...means one, maybe two per shift, assuming coverage 24-7-365...and they were "trained" not "Current".

These weren't SHORAD troops, they were guys that sorta knew which end to point towards the target. I spoke with an Army ADA SFC that had trained some of the SS agents, and he had to keep reminding them about the hyper elevation maneuver.

Things have changed - the Operation NOBLE EAGLE flights are here to stay, and you can sometimes catch glimpses of Avenger turrets on public buildings around DC.

Now, what about a repeat of 911, maybe at Thanksgiving or Christmas of 2002 or 2003? Personally, I have trouble understanding why nobody has tried it again. Don't get me started on the TSA - I used to train USAF Security Screeners...I am not terribly impressed by the TSA folks I've met.

So, Thanksgiving 2003 and you have airliners making unscheduled course changes and heading for US cities and squawking 7500 in their transponders....now what?
 
It was Standard operation policy to launch Fighters as soon as a hijacking was reported at that time. Just NORAD didn’t either get the fighters airborne from the right airbases or didn’t get them airborne in time. So the planes were directed to the wrong place or arrived too late. Better co-ordinated and having the planes going at full speed not cruising will ensure they have 4 to 6 minutes before the first plane hits the WTC enough time if properly armed to take down the jet. If not even to use the guns.

Its possible for all 4 planes to be shot down however you would need something like when one of the pilots thought he was just talking to the cabin yet Air traffic control heard his message explaining that they had a bomb and would return to a airport. You need him to basically confess or for the Planes to get so close to a sensitive area that the fighters are ordered to strike.

You need basically a lot better command system. Confusion reigned on 9/11 some operators thought there was 16 hi jacked planes etc and Bush frankly was not in command straight away. You need Bush to be in Washington or on Air force one so he can immediately react with his advisors not read a children’s book.

9/11 was a major event in the world. No one aside from Plots and fiction had used an Airplane as a bomb. It was only when the second plane hit the WTC that the operators realised this was no ordinary hijacking.

So you need –
Far superior co-ordination and co-operation between Civilian and Military departments.
As soon as the first plane was suspected hi jacked you need Fighters lifting off and moving at full speed not cruising (They cruised even after the 3rd plane had hit the pentagon) they should have enough time to get in position to shoot down the planes over a rural area.
You need someone with frankly the guts and the authority to order such an action. Its been said earlier that such a action would be controversial. You need someone right there either Bush or someone else who is prepared to order the Fighters in.

Hundreds of Americans killed by the hand of their own government would be political suicide which makes such an order been given unlikely. The best chance of such a shooting down is if the first tower is hit and then the order is given. At least the government will have evidence of the plot.
 

stalkere

Banned
Ooo-kayyyy

Operation Green - I apologize in advance, but you pressed a hot button for me. Nothing personal, but this is an pretty much a repeat of a discussion I've had with bunches of folks for the last 7 years.:mad:

It was Standard operation policy to launch Fighters as soon as a hijacking was reported at that time. Just NORAD didn’t either get the fighters airborne from the right airbases or didn’t get them airborne in time.

Hmm...OK, I was at 21st AF HQ that morning. If you're up on AF nomenclature that's an old ADC SAGE blockhouse. Point of fact, the F-16s of the Jersey Devils, out of Atlantic City, had just landed after a 2.5 hour sortie. There were two F-15 out of Otis ANGB (Cape Cod) north of Boston when the call came in about a possible hijacking in progress - plane out of Boston had diverted toward NYC. When the first plane hit the WTC, they went to Buster, Full AB, and headed for NYC, arriving 3 minutes after the second hit. DO THE MATH - Mach 1.2 is not instantaneous...what's the distance from Boston to NYC?...and those guys went in, made a fast pass GLASS EYE type report, and we had to divert a tanker for them out of McGuire, or they would have been dead sticking into McGuire or crashing in New York Harbor.

There just plain ISN'T a lot of fighter airbases in the CONUS anymore and they are scattered widely, particularly in the Northeast. For the old ADC types in the northeast, you have Otis, Providence, Atlantic City and Andrews in the Air-to-air specialty. There's a few more F-16 Guard and Reserve Units, but they specialize in air-to-mud. The majority of the ACM types are in the South and Southwest.

So, to blithely wave your hand and say "
Just NORAD didn’t either get the fighters airborne from the right airbases or didn’t get them airborne in time." tells me you don't know much about the subject. :confused:
WHAT base was the "RIGHT" one?
I mean, I suppose, had the attack happened a little earlier, the four ship out of AC "might" have been able to make an intercept - but they were carrying bluetip missiles and half-loads of 20MM...so what were they supposed to do?
-=-
So the planes were directed to the wrong place or arrived too late. Better co-ordinated and having the planes going at full speed not cruising will ensure they have 4 to 6 minutes before the first plane hits the WTC enough time if properly armed to take down the jet. If not even to use the guns.

-=-
I'm not at all sure what you're talking about here. Are you just guessing, or did somebody tell you this? Because I know who was in the room with ME, I know who was watching the scopes that day...and oh, by the way, the "shoot" call would have had to go to the NORAD CC...and there was no set procedure back then. Even if we'd got a plane there, even if it had been armed, there would have been a normal amount of dithering - and once the plane was over NYC, splashing it anywhere but into the Hudson would most likely, not significantly reduced the final body count.

Full speed not cruising? Like I said, - do the math 900 MPH - 300 miles, 20 minutes. 11 minutes from warning to first attack. How do you get 4 to 6 minutes to spare? I've heard people say stuff like this, but they on further examination, most are "sure" there's multiple fighter bases around New York City, or think that Mach 1.2 is instantaneous....or that Eagles carry unlimited amounts of fuel, so that you can go to AB for hours at a time. These were A models - yeah, they could do Mach 1.5, but that would have had them running out of fuel somewhere over Connecticut.
Fat lot of good that would have done.
6000 lbs of fuel, 1200 lbs per minute -do.the.math.

Oh, and before you tell me that an F15C can do Mach 2.5 at 45,000 feet, please, let me remind you - better engines, lot more fuel tankage, less wind resistance at altitude. These guys were diving all the way to NYC to give them a little more range. As it was, they got over NYC with 6 minutes of fuel left.

Like I said, we're talking about the real world, where air speed has to be balanced against fuel state and the availability of a tanker...this is not the Star Trek universe, where you can instantly transport yourself somewhere, or engage warp, or have 15 years of fuel. Eagles and Vipers run on JP-8, not dilithium.

Its possible for all 4 planes to be shot down however you would need something like when one of the pilots thought he was just talking to the cabin yet Air traffic control heard his message explaining that they had a bomb and would return to a airport. You need him to basically confess or for the Planes to get so close to a sensitive area that the fighters are ordered to strike.

"WHAT" sensitive area? Prior to 911, airliners would routinely violate the ADIZ - sorry Air Defense Interdiction Zone - in order to get on-time landings in NYC. Standard procedure when you were delayed out of DC or Boston was to veer into the ADIZ, so as to shave a few minutes off your flight time. I KNOW the F16s out of AC were specifically warned by Gov Whitman NOT to approach closer than 5NM when investigating an ADIZ incursion, because passengers reportedly got upset when they saw Vipers pacing them. These ADIZ incursions happened several times a WEEK. We weren't shooting any of them down, why would we shoot the 911 guys? Just some more airline wankers doing something loopy.

You need basically a lot better command system. Confusion reigned on 9/11 some operators thought there was 16 hi jacked planes etc and Bush frankly was not in command straight away. You need Bush to be in Washington or on Air force one so he can immediately react with his advisors not read a children’s book.

WTF was he SUPPOSED to do? I mean, I'm no fan of W, but, once the situation got a little clearer, lessee, he went to Barksdale - home of 8th Air Force, Bomber Central, then he went to Offut AFB, home of Strategic Command -i.e. ALL the Nukes are commanded from there. Sorry, that, what - half an hour delay? - allowed a lot of confusion and noise to be organized. Better that he wasn't there while everybody got the information collated and organized into some semblance of coherence. And Believe me, that was a f**king confused hour - I was one of the poor bastards trying to sort out WTF had actually happened.

Hmmph! - my impression is that GWB gets confused easily when his advisors tell him exactly what is happening. Given the absolute screaming confusion we had until about 1030 EST that morning, I am QUITE HAPPY he stayed in that classroom.In my opinion, one of the smartest things he EVER did in his eight years as President.

9/11 was a major event in the world. No one aside from Plots and fiction had used an Airplane as a bomb. It was only when the second plane hit the WTC that the operators realised this was no ordinary hijacking.

Yep. On that point I can totally agree. All I'd add is that, the Powers-that-were refused to even CONSIDER that such a thing COULD happen...and refused to allow anyone to even PREPARE for such a contingency. ACTIVELY, FREAKING DISCOURAGED anybody from thinking about it.


So you need –
Far superior co-ordination and co-operation between Civilian and Military departments.
-=-
Yep.
-=-
As soon as the first plane was suspected hi jacked you need Fighters lifting off and moving at full speed not cruising (They cruised even after the 3rd plane had hit the pentagon) they should have enough time to get in position to shoot down the planes over a rural area.
-=-
As I said, where are these planes coming from? Even today, the Operation Noble Eagle (ONE) taskings are maxing out the Guard and Reserve. Coming up with planes and pilots is a real bitch. It's a shell game - "Today, we're defending x number of cities. You guess which ones."

And where'd you get the idea anybody was cruising? Other than clawing for altitude and trying to figure out if anything more was happening? '

After 1100 EST, the patrol boxes were going up and cruising as the CURTAIN CALL order went out. But in DC, The F18s out of NAS Oceana and the F15Cs out of Langley armed up and headed out most ASAPly - but they went full AB to DC and had to be tanked almost as soon as they got on station. They got there BEFORE the DC Guard could get their birds armed up out of Andrews. Luckily, McGuire had two KC-10 ups that morning - we got one over to the F15 guys over NYC, and another got to DC in time to fuel the Eagles and Hornets.

Or are you under the impression we used to have a bunch of planes armed and fueled, sitting strip alert 24-7? Because we didn't have that, even in the Cold War, except at DEFCON 3 or higher. On 9/11/2001, there was probably, oh, about a dozen planes armed up and on strip alert for all of CONUS, would be my guess, with the majority on the Gulf Coast. Few more in Alaska and Canada. That number is somewhat higher today. But I'd be surprised if you need three digits to describe it.

You need someone with frankly the guts and the authority to order such an action. Its been said earlier that such a action would be controversial. You need someone right there either Bush or someone else who is prepared to order the Fighters in.
-=-
Right now, it's the National Command Authorities and the NORAD CC and/or his designate - usually the duty officer on the ONE Central Board.
-==

Hundreds of Americans killed by the hand of their own government would be political suicide which makes such an order been given unlikely. The best chance of such a shooting down is if the first tower is hit and then the order is given. At least the government will have evidence of the plot.
-=-
Yep...there's a lot of debate that, even today, faced with another 911-type event, will the pilot be able to down an airliner? And all that, "force-it-down-so-it-can-land-safely" bullcrap is on a par with "cops-should-shoot-to-wound"

Once, again, OperationGreen, I apologize for being strident, but gee, I see a lot of "Experts" who opine on this event with absolutely zero facts to offer.

And quite frankly, the short time I've been on the board has convinced me that the folks here value facts and logic.

"Surprise is in the mind of the Commander" - and Bin Ladin had all the surprise he could ever ask for, that morning.

Ed
 
No conspiracy theories except there would have been a different set of conspiracy theories had they been shot down although the cock up theory would probably have prevailed and it would be largely believed to have been an error. However suppose the secomnd plan had been shot down? The first hitting would have probably stopped any claims of mass murder. There is the question of where they could have been shot down as unless the planes were intecepted over the countryside well before New York or fortuitously over the Hudson, they could have caused considerable casualties on the ground as well

Had the attackers been brough down there would have probably been no Afgan or Iraq wars although if Al Quieda had claimed responsibility and the Taliban had refused to hand over Bin Laden then there would have been an Afgan War. Bush's chance of a second term would have been reduced as there would always ghave been a lingering doubt as to whether the hijackers presented a threat
 
Top