I was thinking more natural economic forces, consumer behavior and an expanding social stigma collapsing the market and thereby wiping out D&D and TSR in the 1980s and undermining fantasy on the whole, rather than any federal case or legislation against it.
WI: 1980s Backlash Runs D&D and Fantasy Out of Business
- Thread starter Emperor Norton I
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I was thinking more natural economic forces, consumer behavior and an expanding social stigma collapsing the market and thereby wiping out D&D and TSR in the 1980s and undermining fantasy on the whole, rather than any federal case or legislation against it.
Well, The Guy Who Hearts History asked about a "revolt", which I assume means against state forces. I'm not exactly sure how there could be a revolt against consumer behaviour, except by another group of consumers continuing to buy the boycotted product.
If, in the absense of state repression, DND and the fantasy genre simply go out of business due to lowered sales prompted by a moral panic, well, I guess that's what happens. People stop buying DND and fantasy. What sort of possibilities were you imagining could ensue afterwards?
Well, yeah, but I'm not even sure what TYPE of possibilities you're looking for here. It's a little like trying to answer "What would happen if the movie Titanic wasn't a success?" Hard to know where to begin, without knowing whether we're talking about the actors' careers, future disaster movies, the overall entertainment industry, etc.
Anyway, if you're talking about the impact on TSR and similar companies, well, like I said earlier, they obviously go bankrupt, unless they can re-brand themselves. And on that score...
I think the public, having been "bit by the gaming bug" to begin with, is not just going to abandon the hobby simply because one particular genre has dropped out of favour. More likely, either a re-branded TSR, or some new outfit, would step up to fill the gap, marketing new themes, eg. westerns, conventional warfare, etc.
And, contrary to what some have written here, I don't know if science-fiction would neccessarily carry the same stigma that had accrued to fantasy. From what I recall of that era, it really was the mystical aspects of fantasy that had the paranoics freaked out. But you avoid that if you posit the super-powers possessed by the characters as resulting from developments in technology, not from magical, otherworldy beings.
It's true that there were some Christians who objected to the Star Wars franchise, on the grounds that the Force represented some sort of paganistic, god-like entity(Lucas' bromance with Joseph Campbell probably didn't help matters either). But I think if the gaming companies were to stick to more "hard" sci-fi(not sure of the terminology here, but I mean scenarios based on plausible speculation about technological advances), they could probably market their games successfully without raising the ire of the latter-day Cotton Mathers.
So, for example...
A cops-and-robbers game set in the future, with both sides utilizing hi-tech devices, such as deadly lasers, ultra-fast automobiles, X-ray specs, etc. IOW, things that one could imagine developing naturally, without any sort of supernatural intervention. But it would probably be neccessary to avoid things like mind-reading, time-travel, shape-shifting, space aliens, or anything else that could be construed as magic-in-disguise.
And, of course, gamers who rejected all the anti-occult hype could still buy the de-mysticied games, and add their own mystical elements to it, assuming they were creative enough.
Assuming we're not dealing with some sort of dystopian scenario, then fantasy RPGs are basically dead in America. As I mentioned above, TSR quite likely ends up merging with Games Workshop. That is good overall for D&D, although I doubt GW does the open gaming license. However, sci-fi RPGs might suffer once GW publishes a 40k-based RPG, since that has even more demons than classic D&D. In the end, RPGs in America become an almost wholly adult past-time, and the materials are ordered through the mail.
I think fantasy as a genre would survive, but in a limited form. Movies and video games with fantasy heroes fighting wizards and demons would be OK (so Conan the Barbarian is probably still made). Literature aimed at adults might not be affected at all - the whole motivation is "protect the children". Nothing short of a censorship regime will stop stuff like Wheel of Time and A Song Of Ice And Fire from being written. That said, no way in hell The Golden Compass is published in the US - it's aimed at kids, or can at least be seen that way. The same fate likely befalls any video game where the player can cast spells.
Harry Potter is probably the first to challenge the whole "keep kids away from fantasy" notion. It'll definitely be written and published, being a British series. It's possible that a larger version of the OTL moral panic over Harry Potter to damage sales, but actually stopping Harry Potter from being a hit in the US is a tall order. By now, a counter-movement to the fantasy moral panic has probably been building. My guess is that the controversy will be widespread, with schools all over the country banning Harry Potter, but that doesn't stop Pottermania.
Lord of the Rings is probably also made, but not through any Hollywood studio - they'd never touch it. I doubt that stops Peter Jackson, and when it comes out, it'll solidify the return of fantasy to the mainstream. With any luck, Games Workshop will use the new interest in fantasy to launch the return of D&D to American stores. The rise of online distributors will be a major boon for GW.
I think fantasy as a genre would survive, but in a limited form. Movies and video games with fantasy heroes fighting wizards and demons would be OK (so Conan the Barbarian is probably still made). Literature aimed at adults might not be affected at all - the whole motivation is "protect the children". Nothing short of a censorship regime will stop stuff like Wheel of Time and A Song Of Ice And Fire from being written. That said, no way in hell The Golden Compass is published in the US - it's aimed at kids, or can at least be seen that way. The same fate likely befalls any video game where the player can cast spells.
Harry Potter is probably the first to challenge the whole "keep kids away from fantasy" notion. It'll definitely be written and published, being a British series. It's possible that a larger version of the OTL moral panic over Harry Potter to damage sales, but actually stopping Harry Potter from being a hit in the US is a tall order. By now, a counter-movement to the fantasy moral panic has probably been building. My guess is that the controversy will be widespread, with schools all over the country banning Harry Potter, but that doesn't stop Pottermania.
Lord of the Rings is probably also made, but not through any Hollywood studio - they'd never touch it. I doubt that stops Peter Jackson, and when it comes out, it'll solidify the return of fantasy to the mainstream. With any luck, Games Workshop will use the new interest in fantasy to launch the return of D&D to American stores. The rise of online distributors will be a major boon for GW.
Given the extremely low chance of a Satanic Panic spreading to mainland Europe, I think those bands would just avoid playing or even selling music in America.
Yep. UK might catch it, but the continent catching it would be a major stretch to believability.
Let's say that everyone gets really unlucky, a combination of someone in the higher up level of the company temporarily getting involved in Levay Satanism and maybe a Columbine type situation happened. Eventually it will die down but Fantasy as a whole will suffer in the short term. But one Possibility is that Science Fiction picks up the slack. After all there aren't any demons or anything. Just aliens. They're in space and using tech not magic. Totally harmless.
But eventually there is going to be a backlash against the backlash. All the people who loved DnD when they were kids only to see it go out of business because of scared Midwestern church goers in their 40s are going to remember that when they're writing Star Trek: The Next Generation or whatever other similar series comes out. We could see science fiction that by default depicts religion, or at the very least Abrahamic Monotheism, as a backwards force of violent stagnation and social repression. And when Fantasy like Lord of The Rings bounces back it'll still be made by people who love the books, but I expect Nerd Culture to become extremely anti-religion, or anti-christian at the very least
But eventually there is going to be a backlash against the backlash. All the people who loved DnD when they were kids only to see it go out of business because of scared Midwestern church goers in their 40s are going to remember that when they're writing Star Trek: The Next Generation or whatever other similar series comes out. We could see science fiction that by default depicts religion, or at the very least Abrahamic Monotheism, as a backwards force of violent stagnation and social repression. And when Fantasy like Lord of The Rings bounces back it'll still be made by people who love the books, but I expect Nerd Culture to become extremely anti-religion, or anti-christian at the very least
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Basically agree that's a workable scenario, Abbadon, though I'd add a caveat to the space-aliens fallback. In the event of aliens replacing demons as gaming characters...
1. The aliens would have to always be shown as evil, or at least antithetical to human interests. They couldn't be portrayed as any sort of ally of humans, since that would make them too close to the kind of New Age spirit-guides that fundamentalists get especially freaked out about.
2. There should always be some sort of quasi-scientific explanation for said power, so that the humans aren't interacting(even antagonistically) with occult forces.
3. There might be some sort of consternation among the fundamentalists about what the existence of aliens says about man's unique place in God's creation. You'd probably have to make them pretty close to non-conscious animals, with no hint of common evolution with humans.
And one more thing...
I'll see your Columbine, and raise you a Hinckley: Some delusional social-misfit DNDer decides to "slay the king", as it were, and charges at the POTUS with a giant sword, while chanting "I am avenging the slaughter of the Elkohimians!!(or some such game derived mumbo-jumbo). Even if he doesn't kill the prez, the national paranoia around gaming and fantasy is upped considerably.
1. The aliens would have to always be shown as evil, or at least antithetical to human interests. They couldn't be portrayed as any sort of ally of humans, since that would make them too close to the kind of New Age spirit-guides that fundamentalists get especially freaked out about.
2. There should always be some sort of quasi-scientific explanation for said power, so that the humans aren't interacting(even antagonistically) with occult forces.
3. There might be some sort of consternation among the fundamentalists about what the existence of aliens says about man's unique place in God's creation. You'd probably have to make them pretty close to non-conscious animals, with no hint of common evolution with humans.
And one more thing...
I'll see your Columbine, and raise you a Hinckley: Some delusional social-misfit DNDer decides to "slay the king", as it were, and charges at the POTUS with a giant sword, while chanting "I am avenging the slaughter of the Elkohimians!!(or some such game derived mumbo-jumbo). Even if he doesn't kill the prez, the national paranoia around gaming and fantasy is upped considerably.
Attacking a POTUS or gov't figure? That sounds like a bit of a stretch. If this miscreant committed this act of malfeasance in a shopping mall, school or town square, that's one thing. But how would some attacker with a sword get through the Secret Service?
Eh, the panic was not as big outside the US, but still existed in lesser form. I remember when I was in elementary school in the early 90s how there were some people that came to class to talk about how bad witchcraft is and how everyone should avoid Wicca.
And I wouid assume that if you can get a concealed handgun within shooting distance of the POTU
Also from the early 90s...
Martensville satanic sex scandal
I remember when that case broke, the public response wasn't anything like the widespread skepticism that would greet such allegations today.
And that case was invesitgated by the Mounties, who, while they do function as a local police force in many places, are generally regarded as heeding to higher investigative standards than Sheriff Bumpgut in Hicksville USA.
(Sorry for the awkward title on the link, that's wiki's wording. In reality, it wasn't a sex scandal, but a sexual abuse scandal. Or, ultimately, a false-allegations scandal)
Also from the early 90s...
Martensville satanic sex scandal
I remember when that case broke, the public response wasn't anything like the widespread skepticism that would greet such allegations today.
And that case was invesitgated by the Mounties, who, while they do function as a local police force in many places, are generally regarded as heeding to higher investigative standards than Sheriff Bumpgut in Hicksville USA.
(Sorry for the awkward title on the link, that's wiki's wording. In reality, it wasn't a sex scandal, but a sexual abuse scandal. Or, ultimately, a false-allegations scandal)
Yeah, I thought about that after I posted. But if someone could get as close to Reagan as Hinckley got, they might be able to huck a cermonialized battle-hatchet at him or something. Probably a pretty lucky throw if they managed to hit him.
Actually I can't find it ATM but during a speech by President Reagan a man came from backstage and smashed an ice sculpture on the podium. Reagan ducked hard and the man started to say something, (it was a protest thing) but was tackled by the Secret Service and Security and arrested. Had he been armed with an axe or sword and meant to take down Reagan it would have been serious. That's way to late for the panic but if it happened during the panic and the person was played up as suggested it would have given those behind the 'panic' an actual documented and viable case from which to work from. Unfortunately, (fortunately? depends on which side you're on I suppose) even a "Columbine" type massacre would probably not be enough to drive the 'panic' to much higher levels than historically simply because the public and media were already beginning to grasp the idea of fact checking and deeper motivations for individual actions. Unless those involved could specifically point to something in black-and-white print with notarized copies people would still be able to question the nature of the crime.
Overoceans has it right* in that the main reason the 'panic' managed to get as big as it did was that countervailing information and arguments were harder to get into the public eye whereas those driving the 'panic' could spew unsupported articles, news and "facts" faster than could be checked and for the most part those getting this stuff into the media were hiding agenda's behind title like "Doctor," (commenting as though an actual expert on medical, psychological, and other fields while avoiding having it pointed out the 'doctorate' was in divinity, ie they were preachers not actual experts
) or passing as "Satanic" experts with general or even bogus "degrees" or "certificates" which again were difficult to check if they could be at all.Now even at the height of the 'panic' when these "experts" were being paid thousands of dollars of public money to "lecture" and "educate" the police, public, and policy makers they had only limited effect. Even given a highly visible and well documented incident to rally around the main problem with inducing an actual or wider 'panic' is slight as the number of people who gamed, (all types) read and watched science fiction, or fantasy, were members of alternate religions, etc was by that point substantial enough and had enough media savvy activists that the overall case and support for the 'panic' was already unravelling.
As has been noted IF you managed to get the outcome in the premise fantasy is somewhat effected but for the most part it would a limited simply because the market and network outside of America is already large and self supporting. Even if the effect is higher in America there is an ongoing social revolution underway which is rejecting the conservatism and moral purity that was driving the 'panic' and it would gather steam over the next decade just as it did OTL with youth specifically seeking out and embracing the targets attacked by that conservatism and imposed moral purity.
This is a cyclic thing as we're now seeing those self-same 'rebels' returning to their conservative and moral purity roots as they themselves get older. We're actually seeing 'mini-panics' over and over again in the last few decades even with the internet and tons of information at our finger tips because people WANT to believe certain things.
*Probably the main reason the Mounties investigated is BECAUSE they had a higher level of authority and ability so as to NOT increase the public concern. Local authorities have to answer to local authorities who as part of the local population are more susceptible to pointed local pressure where as an extra-local authority can ignore such pressure and not enter a feedback look which is how the 'panic' operated.
Randy