WI 1940 Wehrmacht bombed in the Ardennes

Tanc49

Coming from the quote below, it looks like the moment the French Army really held the idiot ball (enemy advance spotted multiple time, in a narrow vulnerable sallient, nothing done about it).
So, what if the spot had been acted upon and they had been bombarbed?
What would have happened?
overninethousands said:
They DID spot the german advance in the Ardennes, as early as May 11. Well, it would have been hard to miss it: the panzers clogged into a 100 miles long traffic jam that could have been seen from space, for fuck sake. Some Potez 63 from the Army reconnaissance groups saw them. Also Amiots bombers send into "leaflet missions" at night, also saw the traffic jam.
Unfortunately, aerial reconnaissance was not considered by the armies. Reconnaissance belongued to the calvary, on the ground (no kidding).

Well, have a look at this link. The immense german column was spotted half a dozen of times ! http://opolangi.over-blog.com/ardennes.html

That's one of the most insane aspects of the Ardennes tragedy: that the immense force of panzers, stuck on the poor roads there, clogged into a snail pace traffic jam, was not bombed.

Truth be told, most of the AdA bombing force was either obsolete (Farman, Amiots), in training in south-west France (LeO-451), or stuck with the wrong tactics (the Breguet 693 attacks only 200 ft high, right in the thickest hell of Flak).
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Deleted member 1487

There was the issue of the existence of the Luftwaffe and their efforts to prevent that. The ALA operational aircraft numbers were actually pretty low, especially among fighters, which meant they'd be bombing without much fighter escort, which the results of the attempts to bomb the Meuse crossings show how well that would go.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France#Central_front
While the German columns were sitting targets, the French bomber force attacked the Germans in northern Belgium during the Battle of Maastricht and had failed with heavy losses. In two days, the bomber force had been reduced from 135 to 72.[112]
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Tanc49

wiking said:
There was the issue of the existence of the Luftwaffe and their efforts to prevent that. The ALA operational aircraft numbers were actually pretty low, especially among fighters, which meant they'd be bombing without much fighter escort, which the results of the attempts to bomb the Meuse crossings show how well that would go.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France#Central_front
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Of course, but could it have helped? It also means the French defense would take this into account before it becomes a sickle
 

Deleted member 1487

Tanc49 said:
Of course, but could it have helped? It also means the French defense would take this into account before it becomes a sickle
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Probably not, just got a lot of French aircraft killed early on where and when the Luftwaffe was at it's peak of combat effectiveness.
 
marathag

marathag

Just right for the Martin 167 they had, lowest loss rate for any of their bombers.
Known as the 'Glenn' flew many more sorties than the Douglas DB-7, that had higher losses. In French service they could hit 288mph for Recon runs, and in both Recon and Bombing were proven difficult targets where they were under 3000 feer. Most losses were to flak, not fighters, unlike the rest of the AdA bombers

Many of the DB-7 were even farther away, training in North Africa.

So during this time, it would be up to the few modern LeO or Bloch bombers, or just thro the Amiots at that area and hope for the best to monkey wrench the German timetables



Problem was the units were working up in the South of France, and were not in that area until the 21st.
 

overninethousands

Banned
What are the bombing forces availables ?
On the French side, we have OTL actions over the Sedan bridgehead. Which is pretty discouraging. what was left was
- the surviving Breguets, less than a dozen of them
- the LeO-451 of GB I/12, less than a dozen of them
- the heavy / obsolete bombing force: the Amiot that were send in daylight and the Farmans that tried at night.Well, there were three groups of Amiot and one or two of Farmans, perhaps 50 aircrafts.
And that's it.

I checked some times ago
- the Amiot 354 are too few, and for reconnaissance only
- the DB-7 are in Northern Africa, first group not ready to deploy until Evreux (Normandy !) and 20 May (way too late)
- same for Martin 167F, waaaay too far and too late (I think there was one group in the ZOA Alps. Yes, the Alps, as in Chamonix. What did they bombed there, no idea. Mountain goats maybe ?)

In fact 80% of the modern bombing force (that is, 400 aircrafts over 500 in service, operational ones) was essentially training at a bombing school in South-East France (Groupe d'Instruction au Bombardement du Midi, think that was the name). The bomber pilots were training because they were swapping obsolete Amiot 143s and Bloch 200/210 for DB-7, Martin 167F, Amiot 351 and LeO-451 which flew two times faster.

Fortunately there were the British with plenty of Battles and Blenheims. What could they do ? Well, AFAIK best bet is to send every single available bomber at night over the Ardennes in the nights of 11-12 and 12-13 May, in the hope they catch the Panzers driving with the lights on and place some bombs on them.
I would say, the Breguet can't fly at night and they are too few survivors, so screw them. Send the LeO-451 (a dozen, no more), Battles and Blenheims first to get some kind of surprise effect, then send the obsolete, french bombing force to try and finish the job.
If the Bomber Command can send a third wave en masse, maybe guided on whatever fires there might be, then perfect. Send the Wellingtons, Hampdens and Whitleys. The usual troubles with them is that at night they never found the targets, but there the situation is different. If they can spot the action (fire, explosion, whatever), and drop their bombs, anything can happen. Because they are the most powerful bombing force in the world by 1940.

Attacking in daylight is not an option, see the appaling loss rates taken by the Battles and Blenheims for next to zero result. The flak is just too much a lethal bitch, unless somebody get Il-2 Shturmoviks out of a time wrap (and even then, 36 000 build, nearly 12 000 shot down. 33% loss rate.)
 
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Blue cat

Tanc49 said:
Coming from the quote below, it looks like the moment the French Army really held the idiot ball (enemy advance spotted multiple time, in a narrow vulnerable sallient, nothing done about it).
So, what if the spot had been acted upon and they had been bombarbed?
What would have happened?
Click to expand...
I suspect not much other than a number of allied air craft would have been shot down and the Germans might have encountered some delays.

But I have found some 2nd hand comments about the Germans capturing French cluster bomblets and subsequently recycling them, so I suppose if the French actually had usable air dropped cluster munitions, and crews who were trained to use them, and pressed the attacks home they might have caused some more issues for the Germans, I am thinking that suitable cluster bombs used against the soft skinned supply vehicles and (perhaps the flak guns) might have been quite effective.


As this is an alternate history site I suppose it is okay to speculate based on oblique clues..
 

Tanc49

I guess the question is more whether, once spotted, the French army had seen the Ardennes salient and reacted accordingly
 

Zheng He

This probably requires 20/20 hindsight in that you Allied leadership to realize just how much trouble they are about to be in. If they realize that then everything that can fly and carry a bomb and/or shoot a machine gun is thrown at the traffic jam in the Ardennes, casualties be damned. They fly and night and during the day in a desperate attempt to turn the traffic jam into the Ardennes into a highway of death. However, with foreknowledge of what is about to happen, I'm not sure Allied leaders will decide this represents an opportunity and they have to take regardless of the cost.
 

Tanc49

Zheng He said:
This probably requires 20/20 hindsight in that you Allied leadership to realize just how much trouble they are about to be in. If they realize that then everything that can fly and carry a bomb and/or shoot a machine gun is thrown at the traffic jam in the Ardennes, casualties be damned. They fly and night and during the day in a desperate attempt to turn the traffic jam into the Ardennes into a highway of death. However, with foreknowledge of what is about to happen, I'm not sure Allied leaders will decide this represents an opportunity and they have to take regardless of the cost.
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I mean, it was well spotted so the scale of this invasion could push GHQ to be at least more conservative and open a gap in their lines. Get a couple solid groups and out them at the end of the forest
 

Carl Schwamberger

The LeO45 group that attacked the roads in the Ardennes 11 May took severe losses. There is a description in Hornes 'To Lose a Battle', including the translation of the report of a surviving pilot. Attacking at extreme low altitude the bombers seem to have been shredded by the rifle caliber & 20mm MG. This was one of the incidents that caused the air commanders to try medium altitude attack altitudes. Losses were still heavy and accuracy degraded.

Looking at the numbers the point about how few bombers were operational 10-20 May is important. It looks like its to few to cause much damage, even under the best circumstances & German discipline in the armored units was good enough to prevent panic. As badly prepared as the Allied airfares were attacking the meuse River bridges between Dinant & Sedan was probably the best bet. While the odds of actually hitting one were very low the consequences were large. Guderian and others on his staff stated later they used the last of the bridge and ferry material crossing the Ardennes & Meuse River. The other corps in Kliests Group seem to have been in the same situation. These few bridges and ferry sites were choke points as it was. Getting lucky and taking out two on the 14th or maybe the 15th retards the breakout by one of the Pz Corps by at least a day. Not a war winner by itself, but these things have a way of accumulating. Perhaps it buys a day for some other French effort to succeed, leading to a this success and delay, ect...
 

overninethousands

Banned
looks like the most crucial bridge was the one in Floing-Gaulier - pretty much Guderian panzers highway to the bridgehead, France and Abbeville. So how about using every single Fairey Battle as a dive bomber, on that one and only bridge? destroy this one and the crossings will really take a big blow. The french had no bombers able to wreck the freakkin' bridge... not the Armée de l'Air, at least.

The Aéronavale, however, had such aircrafts.

Somewhat ironically, France very own Stuka, the LN-401/411, was initially created for the AdA before they switched to the Breguet 693 and tree-top straffing and bombing. The few dive bombers build were passed to the Aéronavale, which at the time was pretty much the AdA dump grounds (it was a Mexican army of obsolete AdA aircrafts, including Leo-257bis, vintage 1926 flying relics).

The Aéronavale also bought V-156F Vindicators (also known as Cheasepeake, Cheese-cake, and Wind Indicators, God bless British humor :) ). So the Aeronavale had four dive bombing squadrons which had been taken out of the obsolete Bearn carrier, hence they were available for land-based strikes ! OTL they went into action half a dozen times, and were completely decimated for next-to-zero result (browse Origny Sainte Benoite and watch the results).
What matters is that (unlike 500 or more AdA modern bombers) they were available from May 10. They could have bombed the shit out of the Gaulier bridge. OTL the Aeronavale dive bombers were expended in uncoordinated strikes by a panick-stricken AdA on non valuable, ill-identified targets. Give them instead one and only objective - screw the Gaulier bridge - and add a crapload of Fairey Battles (71 or more) and the bridge and Guderian may have some bad times.

I would say that, so far the best way to grind down the Panzers in the Ardennes are either

- strike at night, catching the tanks with their lights on. Any bomber can be useful in that role, from Battle to Amiot 143 to Farman to Bomber Command

or

- launch a massive strike of Fairey Battles + Aeronavale dive bombers on the Gaulier bridge and / or the bridgehead nearby.

That's really the best that can be done with French, Belgian and RAF aircrafts in 1940. Of course a single Mirage III-E with an AN-52 tactical nuke would do a far better job, that's the exact reason why De Gaulle created the Force de Frappe in the first place. No more Sedan.
 
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