All drum mag SMGs tended for a variety of reasons to no longer have them in their 2nd and subsequent iterations or replacement weapon system
If this trail has a M3A1 style SMG then this with 30 round stick mags should win.
wi; 1936 us smg trials
- Thread starter stephen the barbarian
- Start date
All drum mag SMGs tended for a variety of reasons to no longer have them in their 2nd and subsequent iterations or replacement weapon system
If this trail has a M3A1 style SMG then this with 30 round stick mags should win.
SwampTiger
Banned
Any new SMG design based upon these weapons would require enough changes to be a completely new design. The manufacturer would need entirely new or substantially modified tooling for production. The Winchester design has problems with complicated breakdown procedure for field use. It would require a new magazine and feed design. The receiver needed widening. By the time these issues were resolved, you would have a completely different gun.
The German MP28 was probably the cheapest to make and still one of the best SMGs available in 1936. Its development the MP34 was chambered in .45 ACP for Portugese use so I cant see a problem building an MP28 in.45ACP.
If you take the German MP28 as your starting point you could follow the OTL British route but miss the first stage. Britain got Lanchester van Arms Designer to copy the MP2 and this was manufactured as the Lanchester Sub Machine gun. It was heavy and relatively expensive. Later Lanchester did produce three prototypes of a simplified and lighter Lanchester gun. Due to the Sten being in mass production none of these were adopted. Therefore prewar you could copy the MP28 and say "wow that's heavy and costly, lets make it simpler, cheaper and lighter" and voila by 190 you have a viable mas production SMG!!
You could argue that the Sten was a lightened, simplified and cheap MP28 the basic design was the same and according to Ian McCollum the bolts of both were interchangeable.
SwampTiger
Banned
Thanks for the link.
Here is a video of the takedown and reassembly of a 1907.
Here is a video of the takedown and reassembly of a 1907.
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Are you sure? I thought it was 1-2 per vehicle?
OK general points.
1. You're stuck with .45ACP; despite the superiority of 9mm cartridges for sub-machine guns the US won't alter this. You might manage a 'hot' SMG loaded cartridge, perhaps with a more aerodynamic bullet.
2. Magazines will probably have to be Thompson compatible (so rather expensive). However a 30rd stick is possible. Ignore the drums, they were heavy, expensive, noisy, slow to load and unreliable.
3. For controllability pick at least two of: compensator, in-line configuration, slow rate-of-fire (<600rpm)
4. A skeletal strut stock would be nice but is unlikely, too radical.
5. Bullpup layout and grip magazines are also unlikely to accepted.
6. Based on 4 and 5 it'll probably look rather like a Thompson, i.e. a wooden furniture carbine.
SwampTiger
Banned
A captive recoil spring would do wonders for these guns!
Edit: The US Army rejected the .45 Remington-Thompson with an additional 3 mm length, 250 grain bullet at 1450 fps in the 'Twenties. Maybe you can get a .45 Super with 28,000 psi to add some 3-400 fps. The ability of the standard 1911 in long term use of this cartridge is questionable.
Edit: The US Army rejected the .45 Remington-Thompson with an additional 3 mm length, 250 grain bullet at 1450 fps in the 'Twenties. Maybe you can get a .45 Super with 28,000 psi to add some 3-400 fps. The ability of the standard 1911 in long term use of this cartridge is questionable.
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marathag
Banned
The hole is large enough for the two piece cold weather glove of the Korean War onward era, from a quick google seems that the WWII set were hardly changed from them until the '70s.
Used to buy them up when Surplus stores had them, decent gloves, even when working under the hood on a car. Haven't seen much of them since the 80s
marathag
Banned
Nothing really special of the Thompson mags, I'd say they were cheaper to make than the M3 ones. They dont have the extra metal on top.
I never really bought the 'too noisy' bit. Its like that Garand 'ping' nonsense.
If you're close enough to hear the other guys gear rattling around, you weren't paying attention to let them get that close.
That said, Drums are heavy, and are fiddly.
But then any high capacity 45ACP magazine is going to weigh a ton. Half of the round is lead. Moving ammo boxes around, the 45 acp gets your attention as a heavy bastard
Good to know, I always thought it would just be too small to allow a gloved hand to fit in. In my defence, I don't exactly live in a country where I could see a real one, never mind actually get an up close look.
marathag
Banned
M3 is hoot to shoot.
Those from deprived countries should take a trip to Vegas, plenty of ranges where you can rent one and spend lots of $$$ sending a lot of lead downrange at 400 rpm
Vegas is probably my personal equivalent to Hell (but not in a religious sense funnily enough) so if I was going to take the time and expense to go shooting in the States, I'd head down to Texas.
Plus at the end of the range session you hand the fire arm back in, pay your bill(s) if you didn't pre pay and get on with your day
No need to transport the gun back home, no gun cleaning, no need to worry about storage etc.I used to take my own ear and eye protection with me when I traveled to places where I thought I might have an opportunity to be a "gun tourist."
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McPherson
Banned
a. Erma EMP
b. Lehnar submachine gun
c. MP 34
d. SIG MKMO
e. Thompson submachine gun
f. Suomi KP/-31
f. ZK-383
Of the COTs choices that "work"... I would pick the Suomi KP/-31 or ZK-383
The 9 X 19mm parabellum (Hot load) is acceptable as a round to give a "functional" combat engagement interval of 75 to 100 meters or 2x the effective combat range of a Thompson.
b. Lehnar submachine gun
c. MP 34
d. SIG MKMO
e. Thompson submachine gun
f. Suomi KP/-31
f. ZK-383
Of the COTs choices that "work"... I would pick the Suomi KP/-31 or ZK-383
The 9 X 19mm parabellum (Hot load) is acceptable as a round to give a "functional" combat engagement interval of 75 to 100 meters or 2x the effective combat range of a Thompson.
marathag
Banned
So how you marking things so the smg loads don't blow up pistols?
#2 I have used the M1928 on a range out at 200yards, the sights do work for a man sized NRA target.
But really, any SMG on FA is a 50M weapon.
McPherson
Banned
a. Well... going by Winter War results and ZK-383 employment, the Finns and the Czechs found a way.
b. Certainly the Baretta Model 38 MP was capable of carbine like performance out to 100 meters with 9 x 19mm hot loaded, for it was so used in Russia and North Africa. Problem is that it is 2 years beyond the specified OP date.
c. Range results is not combat firing. Results I cite are combat op-evals by the armies who used the weapons, Finns, Germans, Romanians, Italians, Slovaks and the Americans who used captured or Allied supplied captured examples in comparison trials.
Do what any reasonable (Italians) army would do... green-tip (US case blue-tip) (Glisenti) the hot rounds.
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