wi; 1936 us smg trials

[stephen the barbarian]

as the title says

in 1932 the us ordnance branch, encouraged by marine reports on the effectiveness of thompson in latin america but not happy with the price
(>$200 per) decides in an uncharacteristically intelligent move to hold an open trail to select a standard smg for the us military

requirements;
caliber .45 acp
weight 10 lbs or less
cost $80 or less per unit
must be able to use a 20-30 round detachable box magazine, with drum mags being discouraged

announcement of the trial will take take place on jan 1 1934, test guns must be submitted by july 1 1936

so;
what companies/individuals will take part?
and who is most likely to win?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Would they not also look at European 9mm and 7.62mm pistol cartridge SMG’s as well? As basically you are inviting Thompson to bring a simplified Thompson.

 

[Driftless]

Perhaps Marlin jumps in? They had long been a gun manufacturer, including machine guns. Later than this date, they prepared a prototype for the M-1 Carbine competition and manufactured M-2 Hyde's, so the will was there at some point

 

[stephen the barbarian]

Would they not also look at European 9mm and 7.62mm pistol cartridge SMG’s as well?

maybe, it's just that i really don't see the us adopting another cartridge just for their smg, and at this time i don't see them trying to replace the 1911
but if one of the european smg's can be chambered in .45 then it might have a chance

As basically you are inviting Thompson to bring a simplified Thompson.

i wanted a feasible requirements list, and this doesn't guarantee a win for the thompson

 

[Driftless]

i wanted a feasible requirements list, and this doesn't guarantee a win for the thompson

I've heard one of the recurring complaints on the Thompson was the pronounced tendency for the muzzle to creep upwards when fired on auto. How do you prevent that, other than a compensator?

In 1934, would the idea of being able to separate, or collapse the stock be an issue?

*edit* wood furniture, or all metal?

*2nd edit* At this juncture, who are the intended users of this to-be SMG? That would influence the requirements too I'd guess. (USMC, USCG, US Army??) The Banana Republic and Caribbean scraps and Prohibition smuggling shoot-outs would be fresh in the mind. Prohibition would be over, but bald-faced smuggling wasn't.

 

[stephen the barbarian]

I've heard one of the recurring complaints on the Thompson was the pronounced tendency for the muzzle to creep upwards when fired on auto. How do you prevent that, other than a compensator?

In 1934, would the idea of being able to separate, or collapse the stock be an issue?

that's one of the things that needs to worked out

 

[gatordad699]

Maybe George Hyde submits a design. Either his M2 or M3.

 

[marathag]

I've heard one of the recurring complaints on the Thompson was the pronounced tendency for the muzzle to creep upwards when fired on auto. How do you prevent that, other than a compensator?

Even with a comp you really have to wrestle that gun on full auto. It really wants to get away from you

Too high a cyclic rate.

Grease Gun is a snap, it's a great 450 rpm bullet hose with no problem in being Controllable

 

[marathag]

requirements;
caliber .45 acp
weight 10 lbs or less
cost $80 or less per unit
must be able to use a 20-30 round detachable box magazine, with drum mags being discouraged

Scale down the Model 1907 Winchester
Originally $28 when first released.
Modified to use existing Thompson magazines.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Even with a comp you really have to wrestle that gun on full auto. It really wants to get away from you

Too high a cyclic rate.

Grease Gun is a snap, it's a great 450 rpm bullet hose with no problem in being Controllable

I heard that the USMC recommended the higher rate of fire for the M1928 during its expeditionary operations between the wars

Gun Jesus tested the various marks of Thompson and came to the same conclusion if I recall - that the higher RPM Thompson was actually more controllable!

The M2 was also quite a tidy little gun but the M3 makes far more sense from a production POV.

I have an issue with the method required to chamber a round and the safety system - but I am not sure of those were genuine issues in actual use?

Also its a good Kilo lighter than the M1 and well over a kilo lighter verses the M1928 and it collapses into a tidy little package.

 

[marathag]

I have an issue with the method required to chamber a round and the safety system - but I am not sure of those were genuine issues in actual use?

M3A1 was a brilliant bit of minimalism, with the combo action cover flap that doubled as a bolt block for a safety, and having a pinky hole in the bolt for cocking, sure helps for minimum parts count.

Now I like Thompson magazines better, , the Grease Gun having its own mags was the only miss in my book, along with having slightly heavier wire for the stock(that when removed, tripled as a mag loading tool, cleaning rod and barrel removal tool

 

[SwampTiger]

There were about 10 or so SMG's in service at this time. US companies would need to investigate the OTL designs, review the possible production features, metal compositions, spring rates and magazines. I could see the major gun designers toss their hats in the ring as with the carbine trials.

The Winchester Model 1907 would be a good base. But the specification is for a .45 ACP round. Although I would prefer to start on a stamped steel receiver, the technology had not entered the firearms industry. The 7.65 Mauser guns from SIG, MKMO, MKPO, could show the way for a delayed blowback. Someone could look to the Beretta 1918 and decide to use lightweight tubing as a base. I wonder how reliable were the Suomi coffin mags.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

There were about 10 or so SMG's in service at this time. US companies would need to investigate the OTL designs, review the possible production features, metal compositions, spring rates and magazines. I could see the major gun designers toss their hats in the ring as with the carbine trials.

The Winchester Model 1907 would be a good base. But the specification is for a .45 ACP round. Although I would prefer to start on a stamped steel receiver, the technology had not entered the firearms industry. The 7.65 Mauser guns from SIG, MKMO, MKPO, could show the way for a delayed blowback. Someone could look to the Beretta 1918 and decide to use lightweight tubing as a base. I wonder how reliable were the Suomi coffin mags.

The 50 round 'Coffin' magazines and the 72 round 'Drum' magazines were very reliable at a time when such items were universally not reliable

The only issue was that both magazines like other drum and large capacity magazines - took an age to reload compared to 20 and 30 odd round stick mags and were more difficult to carry about 'ones person' - the Coffin magazine also required a special tool to reload it as it was all but impossible to load by hand without it.

 

[marathag]

Winchester Model 1907 would be a good base. But the specification is for a .45 ACP round.

Since 45ACP has less pressure and energy,21,000psi and 450Joules vs 38,000psi and 1900Joules of the 351SL,the counterweight can be shorter and lighter.
The bolt will need to be larger to handle the larger diameter, .474" vs .407" plus extractor for the rimless cartridge. Wider reciever make it easier for an double stack mag than for the original single stack.

 

[Driftless]

Who are the primary intended users in the mid 30's?

 

[marathag]

e 72 round 'Drum' magazines were very reliable at a time when such items were universally not reliable

That said, you need Drums that have been fitted for a particular weapon, as even the mighty PPsh will jam from the slight differences from lot to lot without spending some time with tools first.

The Thompson and later Chinese versions of the PPSh drum had a starfish like pawl to seperate rounds and reduce binding, than just a follower.

 

[marathag]

Who are the primary intended users in the mid 30's?

Each tank crewman was to have a Thompson, and then USMC fireteams, though I don't believe they were called that yet.

 

[SwampTiger]

Since 45ACP has less pressure and energy,21,000psi and 450Joules vs 38,000psi and 1900Joules of the 351SL,the counterweight can be shorter and lighter.
The bolt will need to be larger to handle the larger diameter, .474" vs .407" plus extractor for the rimless cartridge. Wider reciever make it easier for an double stack mag than for the original single stack.

What about using the Winchester 1905 in 35 WSL? You would have 28,000 psi and 1055 Joules. It is about a pound (450 grams) lighter. You convert to a wider receiver but shorter cartridge to keep it 7 pounds or less. It could be even lighter if some sort of hesitation or delay is incorporated. Mayhap an M1 Carbine sized weapon in 1936 without gas operation. Should someone add gas operating, locked breech, you may get below 6 pounds.
Look at the Reising when it worked. A lightweight, locked breech (or nearly so) under 7 pounds firing a .45 ACP.

 

[riggerrob]

OTL Grease guns are more stable because the butt stock is in line with the barrel, similar to AR-10, AR-15, M-16, etc. Grease gun wire butt stock positively brilliant, considering all the different jobs it can do.

OTOH Thompson butt stock is considerably below the barrel axis, making the aim point "climb" in automatic fire.

What would John Browning do?
How good was Hyde's first SMG compared ith Thompson?

Other SMG sources include: Barretta, Luger, Lanchester, Finland, France, Erma, etc.

ATL I would start with a single steel tube at most 25 inches long and drill some cooling holes in the front third. Weld a bulkhead in the front end and swivel a butt plate on the rear end. Swiveling the butt plate allows you to drop the guts for cleaning.
Weld a bayonet lug on the front end (house-clearing).
Weld a trigger housing on the bottom.
Box magazine with double stack and double feed. Add a dummy magazine holder to carry a spare magazine parallel to the barrel.
Dust cover prevents bolt from moving when closed. Link the dust-cover to the safety lever. Safety locks the bolt fully forward or fully aft.
Attach firing pin to the rear of the main spring (ala. Lewis and FG42) to improve first-round accuracy.
Weld sight s to the top and only make them adjustable out to 300 yards (300 metres).

 

[marathag]

What about using the Winchester 1905 in 35 WSL?

Tooling for that was gone by 1920, so for interwar period, the 1907 and 1910 were in production, and would be based off of that.

Now if there was a big prewar contract, all new tooling based on the 1905 would be in there.

Seems both the 1905 and 1907 had the same introductory $28 MSRP, so I see why more sales if rhe 1907, given the extra power of the 351SL, since that was 30-30 class power.