Not an expert,but i was thinking of Polikarpov I-185 gets produced or the Soviets somehow able to license the He-100?
WI: 1930s-1940s alternate military aircraft
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
More Griffon engine variants of everything!!!
Imagine a Griffon powered, instead of a licensed Merlin, P-51Mustang?
Or a P-38 Lightning variant, or a P-40, it might even save the P-39.
Why was there never a Griffon powered Mosquito, even the Post-war "Son of" Hornet used Merlins.
(Admittedly Eric Brown's favourite)
If you can upgrade the Spitfire why not the Lancaster.
(Yes, I know about the Shackleton)
We could see an upgraded Hurricane not being superseded by the Typhoon.
(Or just a better Typhoon).
Imagine a Griffon powered, instead of a licensed Merlin, P-51Mustang?
Or a P-38 Lightning variant, or a P-40, it might even save the P-39.
Why was there never a Griffon powered Mosquito, even the Post-war "Son of" Hornet used Merlins.
(Admittedly Eric Brown's favourite)
If you can upgrade the Spitfire why not the Lancaster.
(Yes, I know about the Shackleton)
We could see an upgraded Hurricane not being superseded by the Typhoon.
(Or just a better Typhoon).
Where to start - so many. It so easily could have a very different composition of aircraft manufacturers than OTL. - especially in Britain.
Gloster invigorated with the arrival of the Australian team, have their f.5/34 aircraft ready just in time, they are impressed as is the RAF. Orders follow after a few design changes - undercarriage, and re-design of wing spar. Aussie version, is built with P & W R1830, with the RAF Mk II has the Alvis Pelides Major.
When the spec. for the RAF cannon fighter is issued, the RAF thought it was to have a 'fall-back' aircraft - so asked Gloster to amend their design to F.34/35 to take 2 x 20mm cannon + 4 x 0.303" MGs. This was able to be re-worked quite quickly, and an order for a prototype was made. Then the designs for the cannon aircraft started to arrive, and prototypes were ordered from Westland and Bolton-Paul - P.88 'a' & 'b'. Westland as per OTL, B-P the 'b' model flew first - but crashed - due to problems with the Vulture engine. The 'a' model flew well, but slower than expected due to the lower power from the Hercules engine. The RAF only ordered a small number for cannon development purposes a larger order was pending a better engine.
However, the RN stepped in - speed wasn't thought to be a major factor, but they were impressed by the potential firepower, and wanted a naval version - which Blackburn were to produce.
So it was that the FAA's Sea Dante took to the skies before RAF's Dante. When more powerful Hercules engines became available, it enabled the aircraft to add bombs - a flexibility welcomed by the FAA.
1936 was a begin design year for Bolton-Paul - as they also had success in the bomber field - the P.90 design became the 'Barnsley', Short's meanwhile were advised to concentrate on Flying boats (so no Stirling) - with continued production of the Sunderland, and the design office were kept busy with a military version of the 'G' class VLR flying boat for the RAF.
Hawkers with orders piling up for the Hurricane, were able to get production facilities at the Austin Shadow Factory, which helped when the Henley was also ordered. Hawkers seeing an opportunity - offered the Henley to the RN as a FDB - the advantages over the Skua were easy to see, hence in the spring on 1940 it started to enter FAA service.
The RAF in a fit of intrigue over the delay with the heavy-bomber programme, ordered the smallest of the designs by Bristol (79' span) as a Medium Bomber replacement - with the Henley order to counter-balance it. As Blenheim (and Hampden) production tailed off, the new Buckfast production gathered pace - with their 8,000 lb bomb load making an impact on the invasion barges.
The RAF were also concerned about continued availability of 'strategic materials, so asked for designs for a medium bomber made out of non-strategic materials. However, only de Havilland offered a design (Bristol & Armstrong were too busy), their design was subject to much debate - to turret or not to turret - but the aircraft first flew in March 1940.
Gloster invigorated with the arrival of the Australian team, have their f.5/34 aircraft ready just in time, they are impressed as is the RAF. Orders follow after a few design changes - undercarriage, and re-design of wing spar. Aussie version, is built with P & W R1830, with the RAF Mk II has the Alvis Pelides Major.
When the spec. for the RAF cannon fighter is issued, the RAF thought it was to have a 'fall-back' aircraft - so asked Gloster to amend their design to F.34/35 to take 2 x 20mm cannon + 4 x 0.303" MGs. This was able to be re-worked quite quickly, and an order for a prototype was made. Then the designs for the cannon aircraft started to arrive, and prototypes were ordered from Westland and Bolton-Paul - P.88 'a' & 'b'. Westland as per OTL, B-P the 'b' model flew first - but crashed - due to problems with the Vulture engine. The 'a' model flew well, but slower than expected due to the lower power from the Hercules engine. The RAF only ordered a small number for cannon development purposes a larger order was pending a better engine.
However, the RN stepped in - speed wasn't thought to be a major factor, but they were impressed by the potential firepower, and wanted a naval version - which Blackburn were to produce.
So it was that the FAA's Sea Dante took to the skies before RAF's Dante. When more powerful Hercules engines became available, it enabled the aircraft to add bombs - a flexibility welcomed by the FAA.
1936 was a begin design year for Bolton-Paul - as they also had success in the bomber field - the P.90 design became the 'Barnsley', Short's meanwhile were advised to concentrate on Flying boats (so no Stirling) - with continued production of the Sunderland, and the design office were kept busy with a military version of the 'G' class VLR flying boat for the RAF.
Hawkers with orders piling up for the Hurricane, were able to get production facilities at the Austin Shadow Factory, which helped when the Henley was also ordered. Hawkers seeing an opportunity - offered the Henley to the RN as a FDB - the advantages over the Skua were easy to see, hence in the spring on 1940 it started to enter FAA service.
The RAF in a fit of intrigue over the delay with the heavy-bomber programme, ordered the smallest of the designs by Bristol (79' span) as a Medium Bomber replacement - with the Henley order to counter-balance it. As Blenheim (and Hampden) production tailed off, the new Buckfast production gathered pace - with their 8,000 lb bomb load making an impact on the invasion barges.
The RAF were also concerned about continued availability of 'strategic materials, so asked for designs for a medium bomber made out of non-strategic materials. However, only de Havilland offered a design (Bristol & Armstrong were too busy), their design was subject to much debate - to turret or not to turret - but the aircraft first flew in March 1940.
Archibald
Banned
You should have a look at this website (browse: on the left : Constructeurs) https://www.aviafrance.com/aviafrance1.php
France did all kind of (very) silly flying machines during the interbellum, such as this aerodynamic heresy
(Look ma, the bathtub is trying to get itself off the ground !)
Driftless
Donor
I've seen that site - it is a wealth of info on both well know and obscure French aircraft. Look at the list of constructeurs/manufacturers - it's very lengthy.
One of my favorites from the '30's: Bernard V-4 - it screams 1930's racing plane, regardless of how it flew.....
The Tu-2 powered by Mikulin's engines, OTL best Soviet bomber of ww2.
In OTL, the 1st 2 prototypes were powered by AM-37 engines. So the Soviets decide to switch the program in the high gear, and install the AM-38 aboard the bomber. The resulting A/C manages to do alsmost 600 km/h without bombs at 3 km altitude, and 580 km/h with bombs, thus representing a tough target for both the Axis fighters and AAA. Combination of long range, high speed and useful bomb load made long lasting impressions on German logistic units, the Tu-2 was on the forefront of forestalling the German offensives of 1941 and 1942. In order to improve it's usefulness against trains and other vehicles, Soviets installed two 37 mm guns on it, sub-type named Tu-2P (P= pushka = cannon).
In OTL, the 1st 2 prototypes were powered by AM-37 engines. So the Soviets decide to switch the program in the high gear, and install the AM-38 aboard the bomber. The resulting A/C manages to do alsmost 600 km/h without bombs at 3 km altitude, and 580 km/h with bombs, thus representing a tough target for both the Axis fighters and AAA. Combination of long range, high speed and useful bomb load made long lasting impressions on German logistic units, the Tu-2 was on the forefront of forestalling the German offensives of 1941 and 1942. In order to improve it's usefulness against trains and other vehicles, Soviets installed two 37 mm guns on it, sub-type named Tu-2P (P= pushka = cannon).
Redbeard
Banned
All the options in letting the FAA have the aircraft they deserved are very interesting and a lot already mentioned. A navalised version of the Hurricane (folding wings, hook, droptanks) would be first priority - the Hawker Blizzard?
But next it would be very interesting if more Air Ministrys pre-war had made specifications for a dedicated ground support plane. I don't know how the Il-2 started but it ended up a good bid on a ground support plane, but how would a ground support plane have looked if the RAF, USAAF or Luftwaffe had asked for it in time?
But next it would be very interesting if more Air Ministrys pre-war had made specifications for a dedicated ground support plane. I don't know how the Il-2 started but it ended up a good bid on a ground support plane, but how would a ground support plane have looked if the RAF, USAAF or Luftwaffe had asked for it in time?
Supermarine 224 (F.7/30) was a gull wing fighter with the Goshawk,steam cooling via the spats of the fixed under carriage. The image shown looks like a development of this aircraft with the conventionally cooled Kestrel, retracting undercarriage and an enclosed cockpit! It would probably have perforance close to the Gloster No-Name fighter prototype but fly some four years earlier. The FAA would love it!
It's towards the end of the period but I'll throw out a personal favourite of a modified Hawker Sea Hawk with swept wings that first flies in 1947, it effectively being the Hawker P.1052 from our timeline. Seeing the success of the initial models major resources are put into the project to push production and a prototype is ordered, flying the follow year, with an all-moving swept tailplane and straight-through jet pipe to take advantage of improving jet engines for an aircraft similar to the Hawker P.1081 'Australian Fighter'. The success of this Sea Hawk Mk.II sees further Air Ministry specifications issued in the future for models incorporating area ruling, modified wings, and when it's developed reheat, to create a supersonic aircraft that's given the name Hunter to highlight its advances over its progenitors. 
Because aircraft like the Shackleton which cause air and ground crew hearing loss are generally not a good idea.
Driftless
Donor
Hughes XP-34 (based on the H-1 Racer)
Howard Hughes designed, built, and famously flew two different variants of his H-1 race plane in 1935. Hughes thought the USAAC would beat a path to his door to acquire the sleek design for use as a pursuit plane. The Army did not, but in an inspired moment of humility, Hughes swallowed his pride and redesigned the purpose-built racer to suit military requirements.
The changes included:
* Using the P&W Twin Wasp R-1830 engine in place of the Twin-Wasp Jr R-1535. More potential for power growth
* Marginally wider fuselage, with a revised placement of the cockpit to improve vision
* The wide-track landing gear was retained and strengthened for rough field use.
* The prototypes include 4 x .50 Brownings in the wings
* Hughes also put preliminary design work in on potential naval conversion.
The first two Hughes military prototypes weren't quite ready in time for the original flight tests scheduled for June 1935, which also included Seversky's SEV-2XP (P-35) and Curtis's Model 75 (P-36). Pre-competition damage to the Seversky delayed the flyoff long enough for Hughes to get his planes ready. Hughes won the flyoff and an initial USAAC order for 250 planes (then a good sized order). Many, many more were ordered over the next few years, including a navalized version. Curtis later sold Hawk 75's across the globe, including: France, the Philippines, Norway, Mexico, among other countries, along with the USAAC's P-36 variant. The loss of the competition by Seversky's entry led to Seversky's personal ouster from the leadership of his own company at the end of 1937. The company was reorganized as Republic Aviation, led by Alexander Kartveli. Kartveli extensively modified the SEV-2XP, eliminating it's problematic handling, and other performance enhancements, which allowed the revised plane to garner some international orders, notably from Sweden and China. Eventually, that development path led to Republic's hall-of-fame entry the P-47
Howard Hughes designed, built, and famously flew two different variants of his H-1 race plane in 1935. Hughes thought the USAAC would beat a path to his door to acquire the sleek design for use as a pursuit plane. The Army did not, but in an inspired moment of humility, Hughes swallowed his pride and redesigned the purpose-built racer to suit military requirements.
The changes included:
* Using the P&W Twin Wasp R-1830 engine in place of the Twin-Wasp Jr R-1535. More potential for power growth
* Marginally wider fuselage, with a revised placement of the cockpit to improve vision
* The wide-track landing gear was retained and strengthened for rough field use.
* The prototypes include 4 x .50 Brownings in the wings
* Hughes also put preliminary design work in on potential naval conversion.
The first two Hughes military prototypes weren't quite ready in time for the original flight tests scheduled for June 1935, which also included Seversky's SEV-2XP (P-35) and Curtis's Model 75 (P-36). Pre-competition damage to the Seversky delayed the flyoff long enough for Hughes to get his planes ready. Hughes won the flyoff and an initial USAAC order for 250 planes (then a good sized order). Many, many more were ordered over the next few years, including a navalized version. Curtis later sold Hawk 75's across the globe, including: France, the Philippines, Norway, Mexico, among other countries, along with the USAAC's P-36 variant. The loss of the competition by Seversky's entry led to Seversky's personal ouster from the leadership of his own company at the end of 1937. The company was reorganized as Republic Aviation, led by Alexander Kartveli. Kartveli extensively modified the SEV-2XP, eliminating it's problematic handling, and other performance enhancements, which allowed the revised plane to garner some international orders, notably from Sweden and China. Eventually, that development path led to Republic's hall-of-fame entry the P-47
Archibald
Banned
I think the engine had a lot of power and this needed a big propeller, too big for a light airframe. The result was this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-factor The propeller rotated to the left, and at take off the aircraft tended to veer in the opposite direction - to the right.
Skip the machine guns for more fuel and use the ROF 75mm barrel. Perhaps the navigator can also do a reload of the Molins hopper (but not in combat manoeuvres if he wants to keep his fingers)? The alternative is x2 belt fed S Guns with plenty of HE ammunition.
The Warmaster (might be used in the reboot of the Mers el Kebir resolution).
The history of the Warmaster and the Seamaster naval variant begins with
the Master trainer, specifically the Mark II variant with the radial Mercury engine
rather than the kestrel equipped mark I. While the Mark I was needed as a trainer,
the Mark II was beginning production, and several were modified as single
seaters with machine guns while still being built. Although the results
were unimpressive compared with a modern fighter, it did raise the possibility
of a radial engined fighter.
The Warmaster was very similar in appearance to the Master trainer, and used many similar
parts. It lacked hydraulics, had fixed undercarriage and a power egged engine rig for ease of manufacture
, maintenance and assembly.
The initial prototype used the Bristol Taurus engine, which had reliability issues. However,
the performance was of great interest to observers from the Australian government, who secured
a licence build using the Twin Wasp engine. This prompted the Air Ministry to investigate using this engine
as a replacement for the tempramental Taurus. The Warmaster never flew with the RAF, although
the Royal Navy used a Twin Wasp (later Hercules) engined version of the design called the Seamaster.
It was also the main fighter for the Indian Air Force from 1941.
Later marks included retractable undercarriage and folding wings (in the case of the Seamaster)
The history of the Warmaster and the Seamaster naval variant begins with
the Master trainer, specifically the Mark II variant with the radial Mercury engine
rather than the kestrel equipped mark I. While the Mark I was needed as a trainer,
the Mark II was beginning production, and several were modified as single
seaters with machine guns while still being built. Although the results
were unimpressive compared with a modern fighter, it did raise the possibility
of a radial engined fighter.
The Warmaster was very similar in appearance to the Master trainer, and used many similar
parts. It lacked hydraulics, had fixed undercarriage and a power egged engine rig for ease of manufacture
, maintenance and assembly.
The initial prototype used the Bristol Taurus engine, which had reliability issues. However,
the performance was of great interest to observers from the Australian government, who secured
a licence build using the Twin Wasp engine. This prompted the Air Ministry to investigate using this engine
as a replacement for the tempramental Taurus. The Warmaster never flew with the RAF, although
the Royal Navy used a Twin Wasp (later Hercules) engined version of the design called the Seamaster.
It was also the main fighter for the Indian Air Force from 1941.
Later marks included retractable undercarriage and folding wings (in the case of the Seamaster)
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