WI 1920 Kapp military upriaing auccees

What i suggested was that a Kapp putsch would eventually lead to either a military dictatorship or to an authoritarian government established by and supported by the military. Such a Germany would behave very much like the French Third Republic did post 1871.

They would first solidify their own position and try to build up Germany's internal strength. They would act cautiously in foreign affairs always mindful of world opinion. They would seek military and political allies. They would try to break the Versailles Treaty without taking flagrant risks. Their driving goal would be revenge on France and the recovery of the lost territories and German nationals.

I thought the mention of a French move into the Rhineland was as to a response to an attack on Poland. Are you suggesting it as a response to the Kapp putsch itself?

I agree in 1920 it would be possible, but unless the French are ready to march all the way to Berlin and physically install a new government I don't think it will be enough to restore republican government. In fact it's likely to have the exact opposite effect. The German public, including the left, might see the French as the real enemy and rally around the Army.

If the trade unions don't strike then the French occupying the Rhineland will not be enough. As long as Kapp declares Germany will continue repaying reparations I don't see the French having the political will to try and march all the way to Berlin which would lead to renewed fighting. The UK wanted to keep Germany in one piece as a counterweight to the USSR and would not have supported France in this.
 
They would first solidify their own position and try to build up Germany's internal strength. They would act cautiously in foreign affairs always mindful of world opinion. They would seek military and political allies. They would try to break the Versailles Treaty without taking flagrant risks.

This is so unlike the people being the Kapp Putsch that it's hard to take seriously.

As long as Kapp declares Germany will continue repaying reparations I don't see the French having the political will to try and march all the way to Berlin which would lead to renewed fighting. The UK wanted to keep Germany in one piece as a counterweight to the USSR and would not have supported France in this.

They don't have to. They simply seize German coal, cut deals with German industrialists, and let hyperinflation do its work. As it did in OTL. Except in this ATL The German left is united against the illegitimate government which is machine gunning workers and overthrowing the republic.

Of course any notion of accomodating Germany goes out the window in this TL; its new government is obviously revanchist and led by the Huns the Allies just whooped. There's no Stresemann or Jarres; there's the guys who committed war crimes in Belgium.
 

MSZ

Banned
This is so unlike the people being the Kapp Putsch that it's hard to take seriously.

Are you so certain that France would take military action against Germany just because it became a dictatorship (suppose the Kapp Putsch does that)? I'm not - as long as the dictatorship sticks to the Versailles Treaty France would not care if Germany is a federation or a unitary state; if it is a democracy or dictatorship. They might even endorse a dictatorship as they could come to believe that a brutal oppressive junta has better chances of fullfilling its obligations and paying back reparations.

They don't have to. They simply seize German coal, cut deals with German industrialists, and let hyperinflation do its work. As it did in OTL. Except in this ATL The German left is united against the illegitimate government which is machine gunning workers and overthrowing the republic.

OTL they did that as a result of Germany stopping payments and the hyperinflation was artificial. So Kapp might actually prevent that.

Of course any notion of accomodating Germany goes out the window in this TL; its new government is obviously revanchist and led by the Huns the Allies just whooped. There's no Stresemann or Jarres; there's the guys who committed war crimes in Belgium.

Did either Kapp or Pabst commit war crimes? I remember there being some list prepared by the allies of Germans they sought to prosecute (Wilhelm II was on top) and some of them even stood trial in Germany (given very light punishments and pardoned in 1933)


I quite believe that a conservative dictatorship could survive in Germany for some time - the DNVP was quite popular in that time after all and they weren't that much different from the putschists. What i wonder is how they would deal with the Great Depression.
 
Guys

Another 'small' problem for the coupists. OTL Germany's continued reparation payment was dependent on US loans, at least according to every history book I've read. Will the US still be willing to make such loans, on comparable terms, to a right wing military coup that is fairly clear about its long term aims of restoring German military pre-eminence. [I know people are saying the government will be moving secretly to achieve its aim over a long term period. However its going to lose all its base support if it telling them 'we will abide by the terms of the treaties'.]

OTL Britain and America were rather hostile to the Franco-Belgium occupation of the Rhur. In this case, where there's a right wing military dictatorship very similar to the one the powers have just spent 4+ years defeating, their more likely to be cheering them on.;)

Steve
 
Are you so certain that France would take military action against Germany just because it became a dictatorship (suppose the Kapp Putsch does that)? I'm not - as long as the dictatorship sticks to the Versailles Treaty France would not care if Germany is a federation or a unitary state; if it is a democracy or dictatorship. They might even endorse a dictatorship as they could come to believe that a brutal oppressive junta has better chances of fullfilling its obligations and paying back reparations.

Well we know that the German far right horrified France and that the efforts to lower the burden on Germany were partly an effort to encourage German good behavior. And we also know that France did want a federated Germany (preferably broken up). So...

OTL they did that as a result of Germany stopping payments and the hyperinflation was artificial. So Kapp might actually prevent that.

Why would the Kapp Pustchists not stop payments? These are the same guys who wanted Germany to stop OTL?

I'm somewhat rhetorical and showing the allied perception.

I quite believe that a conservative dictatorship could survive in Germany for some time - the DNVP was quite popular in that time after all and they weren't that much different from the putschists. .

In 1920 it got 17% of the vote; the Socialists and Independent Socialists got 38%.
 

MSZ

Banned
Well we know that the German far right horrified France and that the efforts to lower the burden on Germany were partly an effort to encourage German good behavior. And we also know that France did want a federated Germany (preferably broken up). So...

But France did realize breaking up Germany wasn't possible, didn't do it 1920 nor 1934 (after Machtergreifung). Sure, 1920 =/= 1934 but still, if France gets what it wants, just not who they want - does that make such a difference.

Why would the Kapp Pustchists not stop payments? These are the same guys who wanted Germany to stop OTL?

I'm somewhat rhetorical and showing the allied perception.

I kind of believe that once anybody becomes a dictator, his prime objective is to stay in power - since it's a job it's difficult to retire from. I'm cynical here, yes, but I don't think it is ridiculous to assume that once in power, threated with intervention to overthrow them and Commies crawling everywhere, the leaders would rather shoot workers than the French - self preservation can be a powerful motivator.

In 1920 it got 17% of the vote; the Socialists and Independent Socialists got 38%.

Godwin's Law here, yes, but in 1933 the SPD and KPD had about the same as well. Again, 1920 is not 1933, but if the putschists can somehow appeal to the Centre, then they might get to stay in power - especially if they have both the Army and the Freikorps under control.
 
So what we are now positing is a military regime which takes over, shots lefties, and unconditionally does what France wants.

They're popular with whom, and why?

This isn't to say that exploring a successful Kapp Putsch isn't interesting, but I don't know why everyone thinks that the Weimar Republic only paid reparations and got occupied because it wasn't run a military clique who would show the French what's what.
 

MSZ

Banned
So what we are now positing is a military regime which takes over, shots lefties, and unconditionally does what France wants.

They're popular with whom, and why?

Now that you mention it this way, it does seem awkward. But still, dictatorships with little approval - in this case, maybe devoted monarchists and anti-communists - could survive in my opinion.
 
Now that you mention it this way, it does seem awkward. But still, dictatorships with little approval - in this case, maybe devoted monarchists and anti-communists - could survive in my opinion.

Both groups were fervent nationalists who hated Weimar for paying reparations. And IMO any chance of getting a cut on reparations goes out the window as soon as they try to bring back the Kaiser in the 1920s.

Now maybe this could work, but this looks like a Germany that looks worse than the Weimar Republic and is also more unstable.
 

MSZ

Banned
Now maybe this could work, but this looks like a Germany that looks worse than the Weimar Republic and is also more unstable.

Indeed. This is how I envisioned it. Hence why wondered how it would fare under the Great Depression - fall to communists, nazis or embrace a somewhat more democratic system.
 
Indeed. This is how I envisioned it. Hence why wondered how it would fare under the Great Depression - fall to communists, nazis or embrace a somewhat more democratic system.
Well remember the militarists would really turn germany inward. In otl the depression affected Germany because when the ruhr workers refused to work they still got paychecks from the wiemar government. here the coupists will not give a damm if the German workers in ruhr suffer in case of french taking it over. This leds to no hyper inflation due to less overprinting of money and so the most major problem germany faces virtually vanishes.
 
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