WI: 1910 Treaty of Farixen/Washington?

ReenX

Banned
Treaty of Farixen is a mass effect concept by which a single power would have 5 dreadnoughts to other great powers 3 and everyone else can have 1 per 5. Would Britain be more at ease if such naval treaty was signed in 1910, which allowed the Americans, French, Germans, Russians and Japanese to build 3 Dreadnoughts per Britains 5 with secondary powers - Portugal, Spain, Netherlands, Italy, Austria Ottomans, China allowed a 1 to 5 ratio with others being forbidden. Guidelines of Washington naval treaty on tonage limit also applies
 
Treaty of Farixen is a mass effect concept by which a single power would have 5 dreadnoughts to other great powers 3 and everyone else can have 1 per 5. Would Britain be more at ease if such naval treaty was signed in 1910, which allowed the Americans, French, Germans, Russians and Japanese to build 3 Dreadnoughts per Britains 5 with secondary powers - Portugal, Spain, Netherlands, Italy, Austria Ottomans, China allowed a 1 to 5 ratio with others being forbidden. Guidelines of Washington naval treaty on tonage limit also applies

Unfortunately, you're never going to get anyone to sign that treaty and England is going to look like an ass for trying.

Not before the Great War at least.
 
Treaty of Farixen is a mass effect concept by which a single power would have 5 dreadnoughts to other great powers 3 and everyone else can have 1 per 5. Would Britain be more at ease if such naval treaty was signed in 1910, which allowed the Americans, French, Germans, Russians and Japanese to build 3 Dreadnoughts per Britains 5 with secondary powers - Portugal, Spain, Netherlands, Italy, Austria Ottomans, China allowed a 1 to 5 ratio with others being forbidden. Guidelines of Washington naval treaty on tonage limit also applies
The problem with this is you are giving people equivalence in tonnage they should not have. The Germans are not going to agree to anything that gives the Russians or French the same as they have, and the USA is not going to agree to equality with Japan. Plus the Italians are unlikely to agree with this, they have 1 more battleship than the Japanese at this time, why should they be treated lesser?

WNT tonnage limit would be seen as nuts in 1910, nobody is considering anything 30,000 tons, much less 35,000 tons
 

ReenX

Banned
The problem with this is you are giving people equivalence in tonnage they should not have. The Germans are not going to agree to anything that gives the Russians or French the same as they have, and the USA is not going to agree to equality with Japan. Plus the Italians are unlikely to agree with this, they have 1 more battleship than the Japanese at this time, why should they be treated lesser?

WNT tonnage limit would be seen as nuts in 1910, nobody is considering anything 30,000 tons, much less 35,000 tons

Let's say Germans are the one to suggest it, and even as a show of good will decide to decomission a few of their dreadnoughts.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
Germany is pissed, France is probably pissed, the US basically says they're not signing, Italy is livid, Austria Hungary is severely irritated, the Czar feels offended cousin dearest's county wants superiority via treaty.


The end result is everyone limited by the treaty immediately dog piles the Royal Navy (because they'd be arrogant self-righteous ass wipes for trying to impose via treaty superiority to every other navy), and the King gets all his shiny little boats sunk.

UK is then forced into a treaty limiting their naval power to 1/2 of the world's leading navy, and the empire collapses 30 years earlier than OTL, because countries tend to be vindictive as hell.



Number one history lesson of all time forever should be "Don't be a dick with treaties, or you're going to have a bad day".
 
Let's say Germans are the one to suggest it, and even as a show of good will decide to decomission a few of their dreadnoughts.
It's 1910, they still have plenty of Pre-Dreadnought battleships left, they won't decommission any of their four Dreadnought Battleships and one Dreadnought Battlecruiser at the time

Of course Germany would not suggest something that gives France and Russia individual parity with them, when they expect to have to fight both at the same time. Even with their alliance with A-H and Italy that would have them outnumbered 6-5

Italy is definitely not going to sign, they have more battleships than Japan in 1910, they will not accept being limited to the same amount as navies without any like Spain, Portugal or China. If the Italians do not accept, than neither do the Austrians, they are rivals for all they are theoretically allied. The US is not going to agree to anything that gives them parity with Japan, and they are capable of outbuilding the UK if it comes to it

Any treaty is going to have to be much more complex than one thought up for a videogame with pretty simplistic and shallow worldbuilding
 

ReenX

Banned
It's 1910, they still have plenty of Pre-Dreadnought battleships left, they won't decommission any of their four Dreadnought Battleships and one Dreadnought Battlecruiser at the time

Of course Germany would not suggest something that gives France and Russia individual parity with them, when they expect to have to fight both at the same time. Even with their alliance with A-H and Italy that would have them outnumbered 6-5

Italy is definitely not going to sign, they have more battleships than Japan in 1910, they will not accept being limited to the same amount as navies without any like Spain, Portugal or China. If the Italians do not accept, than neither do the Austrians, they are rivals for all they are theoretically allied. The US is not going to agree to anything that gives them parity with Japan, and they are capable of outbuilding the UK if it comes to it

Any treaty is going to have to be much more complex than one thought up for a videogame with pretty simplistic and shallow worldbuilding

Agreed. But its a start. I forgot about Italians in all honesty. But even as a gesture it could improve relations between Germans and Brits?
 
Agreed. But its a start. I forgot about Italians in all honesty. But even as a gesture it could improve relations between Germans and Brits?
Germany made the offer OTL of a 5-3 ratio in 1912 during the Haldane Mission, on the condition that the UK remain neutral if Germany is in a defensive war. The UK refused, but Germany unilaterally decided to keep the 60% of UK ratio and go no further
 
What would nations actually have in 1910? (dreadnoughts & BC only in service and building)

22 Great Britain - 10 (D/3B/3StV/3I) Building 12 (N/2C/3I/4O/2L) largest size 26,270 long tons (26,690 t) (normal) 30,820 long tons (31,310 t) (deep load) with 13.5" guns.

Other great powers - Americans, French, Germans, Russians and Japanese
8 US - 4 (2SC/2D) building 4 (2F/2W)
3 France - building 3 (3C)
16 Germany - 5 (4N/V) building 11 (4H/5K/2M)
4 Rusia - Building 4 (4G)
2 Japan - Building 2 (2K)

Secondary powers - Portugal, Spain, Netherlands, Italy, Austria Ottomans, China
0 Portugal ?
2 Spain building 2 (2E)
0 Netherlands ?
4 Italy building 4 (1DA/3C)
2 Austria building 2 (2T)
0 Ottomans ?
0 China ?

Others being forbidden!
2 Argentina building 2 (2R)
2 Brazil 2 (2MG)
0 Chile ?
 
Japan doesn't have any Dreadnoughts in 1910, the Satsuma class, were semi-dreadnoughts, unless you count the Tsukuba and Ibuki class ACR as BC. They were intended as dreadnoughts but weren't due to budgetary issues, if you count them you have to count the French Dantons
 
One of the reasons the WNT came about was that the major powers were financially exhausted by the Great War. The USA was not bad off financially, but was not interested in a ton of military spending. The Japanese, also not as strapped from the war, still had other places they needed capital to modernize. Basically while "peace and love" was a nice cover for this, the real driver was financial. Those who could build major warships did not want to further bankrupt themselves doing it.

At this point in time the USA was rapidly modernizing the Navy, and also having acquired the PI, Hawaii, Puerto Rico and was building a fleet to reflect their new "empire". Basically all the reasons that the naval powers bought in to the WNT did not apply before WWI.
 
Japan doesn't have any Dreadnoughts in 1910, the Satsuma class, were semi-dreadnoughts, unless you count the Tsukuba and Ibuki class ACR as BC. They were intended as dreadnoughts but weren't due to budgetary issues, if you count them you have to count the French Dantons
Yes I was counting K&S they may be semi-dreads but having 2 different types of 12" is way closer than 9.4" secondary guns off the French (or many others) not that it really changes anything (and not sure if all the dreadnoughts in the list actually have working main gun directors to make use of the advantage of uniform battery?) so we could delete them, it would not change how unbalanced and how far from the average the different nations in each category of the treaty proposed are.
 
Yes I was counting K&S they may be semi-dreads but having 2 different types of 12" is way closer than 9.4" secondary guns off the French (or many others) not that it really changes anything (and not sure if all the dreadnoughts in the list actually have working main gun directors to make use of the advantage of uniform battery?) so we could delete them, it would not change how unbalanced and how far from the average the different nations in each category of the treaty proposed are.
Sorry had my glasses off, confused the 4 from Russia for the 2 from Japan. Kawachi and Settsu I count as DNs
 
Basically all the reasons that the naval powers bought in to the WNT did not apply before WWI.
I would add that I don't think the admiralty (or the British public) would easily accept 5/3/3/3/3/3 they wanted to be more than the next two nations combined and they would not be happy with having so many close others that could join up against GB.

So more like 6/3/3/2/1/1 etc? I don't think it easily works as others are not willing to sign up to such ratios due to prestige reasons.
 
Like I said, there's no possible way this would be accepted before WW1, and afterwards? Assuming some sort of white peace scenario where everyone bled a ton and finally both sides collapsed unable to wage war any longer? There's no way in hell that any of the other three big naval powers are going to agree to being limited below England. You'd more likely see England being forced to agree to a 1-1-1-1 ratio for the big boys.
 
You'd more likely see England being forced to agree to a 1-1-1-1 ratio for the big boys.
I think this is massively unrealistic what could actually get GB to agree to equality with anybody in Europe? In OTL they only agreed to equality with USN or any other two powers and that was with the RN being told it could not use US for planning purposes as it was not a potential opponent politically.

1-1-1-1-1 would require a large GB army as it now allows for invasion by a combination of any European powers even one if GB has had to deploy any of its navy outside northern Europe (Med/FE etc). This would cost more than the extra ships so will not save GB any money so why would they agree to it?
 
I think this is massively unrealistic what could actually get GB to agree to equality with anybody in Europe? In OTL they only agreed to equality with USN or any other two powers and that was with the RN being told it could not use US for planning purposes as it was not a potential opponent politically.

1-1-1-1-1 would require a large GB army as it now allows for invasion by a combination of any European powers even one if GB has had to deploy any of its navy outside northern Europe (Med/FE etc). This would cost more than the extra ships so will not save GB any money so why would they agree to it?

because it changes aboustly nothing all the big boys build what they want everyone agrees and no one gets mad cause nobody is gonna outbuild the birts
 
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