Why would anyone sail west?!

Allright, I was wondering, in a scenario where Europeans don't need to get to India faster, how would America be discovered? What reason would anyone have to sail west? Would they even, or would America be discovered centuries later?
 
If nothing else, whaling would lead people to establish bases on Greenland. With a presence on Greenland, straying West into the Canadian islands and Labrador is probably inevitable- and once word of an entirely new and landmass reaches Europe, someone will probably investigate at some point. Whether our of economic opportunism, or driven by religious or intellectual motivations...

Even if they don't, once people realize how rich the fishing ground off New Foundland are European fisherman* will swarm the place. Which then means Atlantic European states settling the area to stake their claim to the fishing grounds, much as the French and British fought over them. The more people present or involved in some context, the sooner someone will decide to investigate what lies South.

*I've seen it claimed that Basque and/or British fisherman had already discovered the 'grounds, and just didn't tell anyone(I guess because they didn't want to lose their monopoly?).
 
As mentioned above, the European fishermen will find it, and eventually it will be known. Or alternatively, Portuguese sailors will find Brazil and exploration will lead to finding the rest. So a New World explored/colonised through Canada and/or Brazil instead of the Caribbean.
 
Allright, I was wondering, in a scenario where Europeans don't need to get to India faster, how would America be discovered? What reason would anyone have to sail west? Would they even, or would America be discovered centuries later?

What would cause them not to want a shorter route to India?
 
Allright, I was wondering, in a scenario where Europeans don't need to get to India faster, how would America be discovered? What reason would anyone have to sail west? Would they even, or would America be discovered centuries later?
Some people are just adventurous. Over several thousand years, it's a mathematical certainty that at least one of that sort of person will have access to a watertight boat. It's pretty much inevitable, which is why it happened so often (Leif Eriksson, Madog, that Irish saint, etc.).
 

Skallagrim

Banned
What would cause them not to want a shorter route to India?

The route isn't shorter; Columbus was acting on the incorrect premise that the globe was smaller than it really turned out to be.

Another major issue in seeking out a western route for trade with India (and later for seeking for a Northwest Passage), of course, was the fact that the islamic world had emerged, and its powers were - more often than not - at odds with Christian Europe. This made travel to the east less safe and more difficult, and made the idea of a western route more attractive. Of course, the was no usable Northwest Passage, and until the Panama Canal, any trade along that route would have to go around Tierra del Fuego.

To answer the question: the absense of islam, or a friendly relation with islamic powers, combined with (the retention of the previously recorded) accurate notions of the globe's circumference, might well mean that there is far less of an urge to seek out a western route for trade with the east.

On the other hand... an accurate idea of how big the globe is might just lead some people to eventually question if there's just a vast empty ocean between Europe and China, or if there's something there.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Some people are just adventurous. Over several thousand years, it's a mathematical certainty that at least one of that sort of person will have access to a watertight boat. It's pretty much inevitable, which is why it happened so often (Leif Eriksson, Madog, that Irish saint, etc.).

True, but keep in mind that of those three only Leif Eriksson is historical. The other two are folklore with zero historical backing. And Leif Eriksson's exploits went no-where, because it didn't last and it didn't prompt others to go find out more about these new lands.

A boat and a lucky accidental crossing is not enough. You need to be able to go there, come back, and repeat the journey. And even then, if it seems like it's more trouble than it's worth (as with the Norse attempt), it might still lead nowhere.
 
The route isn't shorter; Columbus was acting on the incorrect premise that the globe was smaller than it really turned out to be.

Another major issue in seeking out a western route for trade with India (and later for seeking for a Northwest Passage), of course, was the fact that the islamic world had emerged, and its powers were - more often than not - at odds with Christian Europe. This made travel to the east less safe and more difficult, and made the idea of a western route more attractive. Of course, the was no usable Northwest Passage, and until the Panama Canal, any trade along that route would have to go around Tierra del Fuego.

To answer the question: the absense of islam, or a friendly relation with islamic powers, combined with (the retention of the previously recorded) accurate notions of the globe's circumference, might well mean that there is far less of an urge to seek out a western route for trade with the east.

On the other hand... an accurate idea of how big the globe is might just lead some people to eventually question if there's just a vast empty ocean between Europe and China, or if there's something there.
Yeah,even people at the time knew this.It's why the Portuguese called Columbus out on this and refused to endorse his venture.
 
It's debatable that the New World was known in some obscure circles before Columbus "officially" "discovered" it - there's been some suggestion that Basque fishermen and possibly some guys from Bristol had been fishing the Grand Banks for years, based on how many cod they were always able to bring back. Even if you have a total collapse of maritime culture in Europe, someone will eventually read the Sagas and get curious about this Vinland and Markland that are in there, and go looking.
 
As mentioned above, the European fishermen will find it, and eventually it will be known. Or alternatively, Portuguese sailors will find Brazil and exploration will lead to finding the rest. So a New World explored/colonised through Canada and/or Brazil instead of the Caribbean.

Heck, there were already expeditions from Bristol looking for Hy-Brasil from 1480, it's actually pretty reasonable that if Columbus fails to get backing, we could be talking about John Cabot as the 'first European to set foot in the New World'
 
It's debatable that the New World was known in some obscure circles before Columbus "officially" "discovered" it - there's been some suggestion that Basque fishermen and possibly some guys from Bristol had been fishing the Grand Banks for years, based on how many cod they were always able to bring back. Even if you have a total collapse of maritime culture in Europe, someone will eventually read the Sagas and get curious about this Vinland and Markland that are in there, and go looking.

IRC the Portuguese had a tax office set-up for the Grand Banks fisheries in the 1470s before Columbus "discovered the New World" but the Portuguese found the land otherwise worthless and focused on their route to India instead.
 
You have to wonder what was wrong with Ferdinand and Isabella that they supported such an obvious madman.
Possibly one (or more) of the following things:
- The private chaplain and confessor of Queen Isabella was the personal friend of Columbus ==> favoritism
- They knew in secret that something is there... ==> the conspiracy theory
- They were ignorants and played by Columbus ==> I really do not buy it.
 
Yeah,even people at the time knew this.It's why the Portuguese called Columbus out on this and refused to endorse his venture.

You have to wonder what was wrong with Ferdinand and Isabella that they supported such an obvious madman.

Well, there was an issue with the size of the planet (due to a mistranslation between Arabic and Latin units of measures) but also because he believed Cipangu (Japan) was way bigger and eastern than really. AFAIR, he thought he'd touched Cipangu when he arrived. To be fair given the geographical knowledge of the Far East (inexistant at the time) isn't completely out of line.

For Ferdinand and Isabella, you have to put it in context. Lil' Portugal just potentially hit it very big with Bartolomé Dias in 1488 when he crossed into the Indian Ocean. The Portuguese are also firmly implanted in North Africa.
The Catholic Kings are also sitting on a buttload of cash after conquering Granada. They want and need to make a big impact. They also don't have quite the geographical knowledge of the Portuguese court which took a massive interest, intellectually and economically in sailing and the spice trade.
So this guy comes with decent credential and a big idea that in the grand scheme of thing doesn't cost that much, especially compared to expedition like Gama's. Why not after all? Small investment, potentially massive return


I'll add some candidates to the list of people who might have found NA: my homeboys the Norman merchants. They did commerce with Guinea from the 1360's but got disrupted after Dieppe was taken in the 100 years war. Once it gets stabilised, a third son of such a family might try his luck west
 
If you sail often to South Africa and back you will discover Brazil sooner or later by accident. Actually due to wind and drift the fastest way was via Brazil anyways. And there are some hints that the portuguese discovered Brazil a few years before Columbus.
 
IRC the Portuguese had a tax office set-up for the Grand Banks fisheries in the 1470s before Columbus "discovered the New World" but the Portuguese found the land otherwise worthless and focused on their route to India instead.
There was even a Norse bishop from Greenland who exercised authority over Vinland for something like five minutes.
 
not to mention the ship technology of the Atlantic facing countries was getting better, better ships means you have a chance of returning to tell the tale of land to the west
 
The route isn't shorter; Columbus was acting on the incorrect premise that the globe was smaller than it really turned out to be.

Another major issue in seeking out a western route for trade with India (and later for seeking for a Northwest Passage), of course, was the fact that the islamic world had emerged, and its powers were - more often than not - at odds with Christian Europe. This made travel to the east less safe and more difficult, and made the idea of a western route more attractive. Of course, the was no usable Northwest Passage, and until the Panama Canal, any trade along that route would have to go around Tierra del Fuego.

To answer the question: the absense of islam, or a friendly relation with islamic powers, combined with (the retention of the previously recorded) accurate notions of the globe's circumference, might well mean that there is far less of an urge to seek out a western route for trade with the east.

On the other hand... an accurate idea of how big the globe is might just lead some people to eventually question if there's just a vast empty ocean between Europe and China, or if there's something there.

People already had a fairly accurate idea of how big the globe was; Columbus' measurement was significantly lower than both the real size of the world and the common-accepted size, which is why nobody but the Spanish was willing to fund him.
 
not to mention the ship technology of the Atlantic facing countries was getting better, better ships means you have a chance of returning to tell the tale of land to the west

I think so, yes. And if nothing else, once naval technology gets good enough to actually sail the distance from Europe west to Asia, sooner or later somebody's going to try and make the trip.
 
I think so, yes. And if nothing else, once naval technology gets good enough to actually sail the distance from Europe west to Asia, sooner or later somebody's going to try and make the trip.
So how many years do you think it could be delayed?Also,what are the effects of this delayal?
 
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