Why The Lack of A Venetian Presence During The Age Of Discovery?

That on the Nicobares was more a claim than an actual colony. Also, at the time the Habsburg Empire controlled the southern Netherlands with Antwerp.

That said you are right that a sugar island or two or similar small and probably short lives colony might exist.

In fact there was I think an attempt by the Grand Duchy of Tuscany to establish one such colony in the xvii century, but I don't remember the details of it.

It would be most likely neceasary to involve ASB, but having Venezuela being literally a new Venice would be quite awesome.
IIRC, you're referencing the Thornton Expedition, which was an attempt by the Grand Duchy of Tuscany to establish a colony in the New World.
 
IIRC, you're referencing the Thornton Expedition, which was an attempt by the Grand Duchy of Tuscany to establish a colony in the New World.
That one, yes. It would have been in otl's French Guyana more or less.
It shows that there was some interest, but I think that Venice, being so focused on the East would attempt something similar. A stable state occupying Northern and Central Italy, be it Milan or Florence centered could be more interested. Heck, even just having a slightly stronger Tuscany and althe interested Grand Duke not dying at an inconvenient time couod have developed that expedition into a true colony attempt.
 
I'm sorry, I really don't know enough about the Italian Wars to agree or disagree with the assertions made regarding those.
In short, everyone in and around Italy fought for over half a century for control of Northern Italy. Alliances shifted on the drop of a dime (the War of the League of Cambrai saw the Venetians fight the Pope, France, Spain, etc. Then the Venetians and Pope fought the French, then the Venetians, Scottish, and French fought the Pope, Spanish, English, all in the course of one war). Most of the fighting the Italian Wars were in, well, Italy, which ravaged the region pretty badly. It was the beginning of the end for Italian independence, as all of Italy would be put under French, Spanish, or Austrian control/influence and only escape that in the 19th century.

I still feel at the end of the day, the primary factor was the reliance on galleys, though I'd like to get inside the heads of the merchants, businessmen, and venture capitalists of the Maritime Republics and say, 'Hey, why don't you outfit a few ocean-worthy vessels and find the source of the riches yourself rather than relying on the Middlemen?' As the Portuguese did and the Spanish attempted to.
Eh, the Venetians were the Middlemen in this context. They'd been middlemen for quite some time and it was stunningly profitable so that's a bit of why they kept on that particular path, I imagine. Plus, Portugal and Spain are much better positioned to go and find an alternate route, as said a bunch already, whereas Venice is located in the part of Italy furthest from the Atlantic.
IIRC, the founder of the Austrian East India Company tried (and succeeded insofar as gaining a commission and charter) to convince the Kaiserin that Trieste (a two hour drive from Venice) was a feasible place to trade with the East Indies through. . .

. . . Did the colony fail, yes. But it wasn't by means of distance.

A further point I might disagree with is that a few, short-lived sugar plantations might have occurred. I don't see why an intrepid Venetian or Genovesi (either wealthy in his own right or with backers & investors) or whathaveyou might outfit a small expedition to a particularly profitable looking area in the East Indies. They might not get the most prime real estate, but they might be profitable to keep up a trade colony for a good clip of time (Napoleon and Garibaldi notwithstanding).
The Austrians went ahead and had their East India adventure in the late 1700s, which is a bit far along (Venice's glory days were long past by this point and colonization was a bit of a pricey affair).

I wouldn't say that a few colonial ventures couldn't be made but I doubt that they could hold it for long, especially with all the piracy, warfare, and difficulty of protecting such colonies. Seeing as Venice would only continue to lose its economic standing as time went on, colonization becomes more and more untenable the later the POD.

I don't particularly know but Venice's orientation favors eastward attention. I'd say one thing that would really help push Venetian colonization is beating Genoa early and getting dominance over Italy asap, before it becomes a warzone, so as to get a quicker route to the Atlantic and get more money+manpower for the effort. Otherwise, it's just not going to be able to compete with the bigger, better-located nations.

Maybe getting Venice a bit more involved in the Trans-Sahara trade might help (take Genoa's place in funding Granada). From there, establish a presence near the Atlantic in Gibraltar and, once Granada falls, the Venetians start an exploration race with Portugal?
 
Eh, the Venetians were the Middlemen in this context. They'd been middlemen for quite some time and it was stunningly profitable so that's a bit of why they kept on that particular path, I imagine. Plus, Portugal and Spain are much better positioned to go and find an alternate route, as said a bunch already, whereas Venice is located in the part of Italy furthest from the Atlantic.

The Venetians were one of several Middlemen. In this case, I'm looking at them as the initial retail store to Europe. Before that, their products are generally sold to them by Third and Fourth parties (excepting certain Venetians who are traveling across Asia to get the goods themselves.

The Austrians went ahead and had their East India adventure in the late 1700s, which is a bit far along (Venice's glory days were long past by this point and colonization was a bit of a pricey affair).

I thought of a POD roughly around the 1650s. No reason is /has/ to be the late 1700s for Venice or Genoa. Again most of this colonization is going to be done by individuals and small companies.


I don't particularly know but Venice's orientation favors eastward attention. I'd say one thing that would really help push Venetian colonization is beating Genoa early and getting dominance over Italy asap, before it becomes a warzone, so as to get a quicker route to the Atlantic and get more money+manpower for the effort. Otherwise, it's just not going to be able to compete with the bigger, better-located nations.

I've never thought of this idea as a 'Grand Venetian Colonial Empire as other posters seem to think I'm getting at. Certainly not in the sense of the British or Spanish Empires. In my mind, I'm seeing maybe a couple West Indies islands, maybe a couple city-states in Indonesia/Malaysia (which may or may not give them eventual control of an island a la the Dutch), and who knows; maybe some slices of Africa.

There's a cool Venezia wank TL here, where Venezia get colonie IIRC

Cool beans. I'll take a look into it. Thanks. :^)
 
Last edited:
The Venetians were one of several Middlemen. In this case, I'm looking at them as the initial retail store to Europe. Before that, their products are generally sold to them by Third and Fourth parties (excepting certain Venetians who are traveling across Asia to get the goods themselves.

Well, yeah. Probably should've specified that bit. But the whole point of going around Africa was to cut the Venetians out of the equation. The Venetians, meanwhile, were making enough money to stay as Middlemen for quite a bit longer, which is why they didn't immediately jump ship to the Atlantic. A possible early Suez canal was apparently suggested but I'm not sure how well that'd go seeing as that'd be under Ottoman control before long (if we're going by a POD around the initial voyage to India).


I've never thought of this idea as a 'Grand Venetian Colonial Empire as other posters seem to think I'm getting at. Certainly not in the sense of the British or Spanish Empires. In my mind, I'm seeing maybe a couple West Indies islands, maybe a couple city-states in Indonesia/Malaysia (which may or may not give them eventual control of an island a la the Dutch), and who knows; maybe some slices of Africa.
I think there was an assumption of staying power, which would necessitate some amount of security in the region. Without naval power, the colonies could easily be seized (the Knights of St. John's attempt, Courland's attempt, most of the Dutch and Swedish colonies, Portugal's East Indies holdings, etc.). But naval power requires a decent presence in the region and a whole lot of money on hand or being friendly enough with the major colonial powers so as to not get beat up and get colonies taken. As time went on, the first two would get more and more difficult while Venice was never good at the third.

If it's a short term project, yeah, sure, if someone with enough money wanted to, it could happen. For a longer term colonial venture, might take a bit more than just that.
 
Top