Any one else find it ironic that the Chinese Civil War was over whether to reform and modernise or not, only for both sides to do so anyway?
Why the Chinese play cricket (an Imperial Federation timeline)
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As per the third iteration, I like to acknowledge every 500 replies. So yay @carbon1923 gets reply No 1000. I'll give a proper reply in a moment
Key to this is Yuan Shikai. When consider his OTL track record, by rights he should have fallen in with the southern reformers. When you look at him, he very much understood the need for radical reform. It was only that he played such a pivotal role in Cixi's coup which left the Guangxu Emperor a powerless prisoner which flipped him to the other side. Because if he'd tried to cosy up with the Emperor he's likely to have ended up with his head and body parting company. But yeah is kind of hugely ironic lol
The siege of Plevna, the effect of the repeaters has been much over stated.
But yes the arrival of light automatics on he scene coupled with the very obvious demonstration of the value of LMGs should have an impact.
An update to the Introduction worth mentioning
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NOTE ON NAMES: The term used to refer to the British Empire throughout the timeline changes over time. From 1870 to 1909 Britain and British is used with individual parts of the Empire named as required. In 1909 there is a fundamental change in the constitutional structure of the Empire, with the Dominions given a binding voice in Imperial policy. Therefore from 1910 the the terms Empire and Imperial used, with Britain and British solely referring to the Home Islands. At some point in after that, the Empire will again change with its transformation into a formal federation known as the Imperial Commonwealth. From this point one, the term Commonwealth is used. At this point I'm not entire when that will happen, but it will happen.
=McUpdate=
========/
NOTE ON NAMES: The term used to refer to the British Empire throughout the timeline changes over time. From 1870 to 1909 Britain and British is used with individual parts of the Empire named as required. In 1909 there is a fundamental change in the constitutional structure of the Empire, with the Dominions given a binding voice in Imperial policy. Therefore from 1910 the the terms Empire and Imperial used, with Britain and British solely referring to the Home Islands. At some point in after that, the Empire will again change with its transformation into a formal federation known as the Imperial Commonwealth. From this point one, the term Commonwealth is used. At this point I'm not entire when that will happen, but it will happen.
=McUpdate=
April-June 1905: A new world order
~April-June 1905: A new world order
April 1905: Seeking to expand their influence in Morocco, the French have been pressuring the Sultan Abd al-Haziz to make concessions which would increase their control over Morocco. Fearful of the the growing Anglo-French friendship, German Kaiser Wilhelm attempts to spark a diplomatic crisis by visiting Tangier and making inflammatory statements in support of the Sultan, hoping the new British Liberal administration will prove unwilling to support France. The French perceiving these statements as a threat to their interests, respond hostilely sparking the desired crisis.
April 1905: With it clear the US share of the Boxer indemnity imposed will be far greater than required for compensation of losses to US citizens and companies, President Roosevelt agrees to remit a substantial portion to the education of Chinese students in the US and the establishment of universities in Guangdong and Beijing
April 1905: With the US Navy now possessing twelve battleships, and another eleven under construction, along with eighteen armoured and twenty seven other cruisers either commissioned or nearing completion, Congress is determined to cut naval spending. As a result only two battleships and two scout cruisers are authorised. Additionally, the drive to reduce costs restricts the battleships displacement to 13,000 tons as opposed to the 16,500 tons of the previous Vermont class. As a result the Mississippi class speed and protection will be heavily compromised.
April 20th 1905: Joseph Chamberlain's Liberal government introduces the Representation of the People Bill which would establish universal male and female suffrage in Britain. This was a key element of the Liberals election manifesto in 1904, and as such, Chamberlain declares it to be a matter of confidence.
April 1905: A group of Brazilian businessmen form the Linha de Navegação Imperial Brasileira (LNIB) or Imperial Brazilian Shipping Line, ordering two 25,000 GRT ocean liners from British yards. The Recife and Salvador are intended as the premier ships of the new line, though larger vessel are planned.
May 1905: With the withdrawal of the British garrison from Tibet and its replacement by Xianfa troops, the Xianfa have been attempting to increase their control over the Tibet, encouraging substantial migration of Han Chinese. Fears this is the first step toward ending Tibet autonomy provoke an uprising in the Kham region. In response a large punitive expedition under General Cai E is dispatched to deal with the situation. Cai will ruthlessly suppress the uprising over the next year, crushing all opposition. As a result of the uprising, the Tibetan regions of Batang and Litang will be annexed to Sichuan Province. Additionally the Xianfa will begin to exert considerable pressure on the Tibetans to accept additional political controls.
May 1905: Despite the crushing defeat of Kuropatkin's Far Eastern Army in the Battle of Mukden, Tsar Nicholas II has refused to negotiate an end to the Russo-Japanese War, still confident Admiral Zinovy Rozhestvensky's fleet can defeat the Japanese, isolating the Japanese army in Manchuria, allowing an eventual Russian victory. However after their epic seven month journey around the world, Rozhestvensky's ships are in dire need of refit and he sets a course for the Russian port of Vladivostok. Admiral Tōgō Heihachirō anticipates his likely course through the Straits of Tsushima and deploys his fleet to block Rozhestvensky's passage. Though Rozhestvensky's fleet of eleven battleships theoretically outnumbers Tōgō's six, Tōgō's aggressive use of his fast well armed armoured cruisers, along with his fleet's superior experience and the poor state of the Russian ships results in a crushing Japanese victory, with the Russian fleet annihilated. Tōgō's decisive victory ends the Tsar's hopes for victory, leaving him finally willing to begin peace negotiations. The final act of the war will be the virtually unopposed Japanese occupation of Sakhalin Island several weeks later.
May 1905: Viceroy for India Lord Grey and Secretary for India John Morley launch the first stage of their reforms in India proposing a new system of government. Under the proposed Grey-Morley Reforms, India would be divided into fourteen administrative States which would have near full autonomy, while Burma along with the Andaman and Nicobar Islands would be split off as separate British colonies under the Colonial Office. The new regions would consists of the five Princely States which have direct relations with the central government, the eight major provinces under direct British control, with a new Rajaputana State created by combining British governed the province of Ajmer-Merwar with the Princely States of the Rajaputana Agency. The central Indian government would be retained but with reduced powers and a purely appointed governing assembly. The reforms will face massive opposition from many of the rulers of the Princely States, the vast majority of whom, while retaining their theoretical autonomy, would be included in the new states created from the existing eight British controlled provinces, ending their connection with the central government. However the more progressive Princes, led by Maharajahs Ganga Singh of Bikaner and Krishnaraja Wadiyar IV of Mysore are extremely supportive of the proposal and begin lobbying for its implementation.
May 1905: Since the discovery of diamonds in the Boer Republics in 1885, there has been a steady influx of British and Dominion settlers into Southern Africa. These new immigrants have led to a stead rise in racist attitudes in the region, a process accelerated by the annexation of the Boer Republics. As a consequence of this rising racism, the vote is removed from most non-whites in the Cape Colony and Natal.
May 1905: Continuing the reforms of the Elgin and Esher Committees, British Secretary of War sponsors the Territorial and Militia Act through parliament. The act combines the existing Militia, Volunteers and Yeomanry into the Territorial Force intended primarily for home defence, though units may be deployed overseas by an Order in Council. The existing Regular Reserve of former regular army servicemen is retained to prove a pool of reinforcements for the regular army. The act will result in a marked increase the quality and effectiveness of the army's reserve forces.
June 1905: Since being forced into a personal union with the Swedish crown in 1815, tensions between Sweden and Norway have been growing, with the Norwegians increasing unwilling to accept the Swedish dominated union. With Sweden growing increasingly close to Germany and the Norwegian economy growing increasing reliant on trade with Britain, many in Norway now fear the possibility of war between Britain and Germany, These tensions finally lead to the Norwegian Sorting voting to dissolve the union and calling a plebiscite on independence. While some in Sweden call for a hardline approach, the Swedish government agrees to negotiations.
June 1905: In a close election, the moderate monarchist Tan Sitong takes 52% of the vote to become the first elected Grand Chancellor of the Xianfa government, defeating the radical Kang Youwei, and republicans Huang Xing and Sun Yat-sen. He appoints an interim National Assembly composed of members drawn from the supporters of the four candidates in proportion to their share of votes in the election, resulting it being narrowly controlled by his supporters. However, in an effort to promote consensus, Tan includes the other candidates for Grand Chancellor within his cabinet.
June 1905: Despite facing considerable opposition and outright anger from the French military and political establishments, Emperor Napoleon IV continues to advocate for further French military reform, pushing though a program to develop modern artillery in addition the 75mm Mle 1897 with a 105mm field howitzer, a 127mm field gun and a 155mm heavy howitzer to be developed. He has also been forcefully advocating a change in doctrine away from the current aggressive offensive action based on a belief in elan in favour the British system of fire and movement developed in response to the Boer and Chinese Civil Wars. However here he has only been successful in increasing the ammunition allocation for musketry practice from 48 rounds per man per year to 80 rounds.
June 1905: Since the start of the Tangier Crisis over Morocco, Kaiser Wilhelm has been trying to force an international conference to resolve Morocco's future, particularly focusing on gaining US President Roosevelt and British Prime Minister Chamberlain's support for such a conference. While both have up to now been unwilling to become involved due to the ongoing Russo-Japanese War and unstable political situation in China, the crisis has deteriorated to the point where war between Germany and France appears possible. With both Britain and the US not wishing to face the distraction of a war in Europe, they pressure the French into agreeing to attend such an international conference.
June 1905: With the unrest in Russia sparked by the events of Bloody Sunday continuing to spread, the crew of the battleship Potempkin mutinies in Odessa. Several attempts to put down the mutiny, including attempts to sink the ship fail. Eventually the Potempkin's crew is given asylum in Romania and the ship returned to Russian control to be renamed the Panteleimon. But the mutiny has severely undermined the morale and reliability of the entire Russian armed forces.
April 1905: Seeking to expand their influence in Morocco, the French have been pressuring the Sultan Abd al-Haziz to make concessions which would increase their control over Morocco. Fearful of the the growing Anglo-French friendship, German Kaiser Wilhelm attempts to spark a diplomatic crisis by visiting Tangier and making inflammatory statements in support of the Sultan, hoping the new British Liberal administration will prove unwilling to support France. The French perceiving these statements as a threat to their interests, respond hostilely sparking the desired crisis.
April 1905: With it clear the US share of the Boxer indemnity imposed will be far greater than required for compensation of losses to US citizens and companies, President Roosevelt agrees to remit a substantial portion to the education of Chinese students in the US and the establishment of universities in Guangdong and Beijing
April 1905: With the US Navy now possessing twelve battleships, and another eleven under construction, along with eighteen armoured and twenty seven other cruisers either commissioned or nearing completion, Congress is determined to cut naval spending. As a result only two battleships and two scout cruisers are authorised. Additionally, the drive to reduce costs restricts the battleships displacement to 13,000 tons as opposed to the 16,500 tons of the previous Vermont class. As a result the Mississippi class speed and protection will be heavily compromised.
April 20th 1905: Joseph Chamberlain's Liberal government introduces the Representation of the People Bill which would establish universal male and female suffrage in Britain. This was a key element of the Liberals election manifesto in 1904, and as such, Chamberlain declares it to be a matter of confidence.
April 1905: A group of Brazilian businessmen form the Linha de Navegação Imperial Brasileira (LNIB) or Imperial Brazilian Shipping Line, ordering two 25,000 GRT ocean liners from British yards. The Recife and Salvador are intended as the premier ships of the new line, though larger vessel are planned.
May 1905: With the withdrawal of the British garrison from Tibet and its replacement by Xianfa troops, the Xianfa have been attempting to increase their control over the Tibet, encouraging substantial migration of Han Chinese. Fears this is the first step toward ending Tibet autonomy provoke an uprising in the Kham region. In response a large punitive expedition under General Cai E is dispatched to deal with the situation. Cai will ruthlessly suppress the uprising over the next year, crushing all opposition. As a result of the uprising, the Tibetan regions of Batang and Litang will be annexed to Sichuan Province. Additionally the Xianfa will begin to exert considerable pressure on the Tibetans to accept additional political controls.
May 1905: Despite the crushing defeat of Kuropatkin's Far Eastern Army in the Battle of Mukden, Tsar Nicholas II has refused to negotiate an end to the Russo-Japanese War, still confident Admiral Zinovy Rozhestvensky's fleet can defeat the Japanese, isolating the Japanese army in Manchuria, allowing an eventual Russian victory. However after their epic seven month journey around the world, Rozhestvensky's ships are in dire need of refit and he sets a course for the Russian port of Vladivostok. Admiral Tōgō Heihachirō anticipates his likely course through the Straits of Tsushima and deploys his fleet to block Rozhestvensky's passage. Though Rozhestvensky's fleet of eleven battleships theoretically outnumbers Tōgō's six, Tōgō's aggressive use of his fast well armed armoured cruisers, along with his fleet's superior experience and the poor state of the Russian ships results in a crushing Japanese victory, with the Russian fleet annihilated. Tōgō's decisive victory ends the Tsar's hopes for victory, leaving him finally willing to begin peace negotiations. The final act of the war will be the virtually unopposed Japanese occupation of Sakhalin Island several weeks later.
May 1905: Viceroy for India Lord Grey and Secretary for India John Morley launch the first stage of their reforms in India proposing a new system of government. Under the proposed Grey-Morley Reforms, India would be divided into fourteen administrative States which would have near full autonomy, while Burma along with the Andaman and Nicobar Islands would be split off as separate British colonies under the Colonial Office. The new regions would consists of the five Princely States which have direct relations with the central government, the eight major provinces under direct British control, with a new Rajaputana State created by combining British governed the province of Ajmer-Merwar with the Princely States of the Rajaputana Agency. The central Indian government would be retained but with reduced powers and a purely appointed governing assembly. The reforms will face massive opposition from many of the rulers of the Princely States, the vast majority of whom, while retaining their theoretical autonomy, would be included in the new states created from the existing eight British controlled provinces, ending their connection with the central government. However the more progressive Princes, led by Maharajahs Ganga Singh of Bikaner and Krishnaraja Wadiyar IV of Mysore are extremely supportive of the proposal and begin lobbying for its implementation.
May 1905: Since the discovery of diamonds in the Boer Republics in 1885, there has been a steady influx of British and Dominion settlers into Southern Africa. These new immigrants have led to a stead rise in racist attitudes in the region, a process accelerated by the annexation of the Boer Republics. As a consequence of this rising racism, the vote is removed from most non-whites in the Cape Colony and Natal.
May 1905: Continuing the reforms of the Elgin and Esher Committees, British Secretary of War sponsors the Territorial and Militia Act through parliament. The act combines the existing Militia, Volunteers and Yeomanry into the Territorial Force intended primarily for home defence, though units may be deployed overseas by an Order in Council. The existing Regular Reserve of former regular army servicemen is retained to prove a pool of reinforcements for the regular army. The act will result in a marked increase the quality and effectiveness of the army's reserve forces.
June 1905: Since being forced into a personal union with the Swedish crown in 1815, tensions between Sweden and Norway have been growing, with the Norwegians increasing unwilling to accept the Swedish dominated union. With Sweden growing increasingly close to Germany and the Norwegian economy growing increasing reliant on trade with Britain, many in Norway now fear the possibility of war between Britain and Germany, These tensions finally lead to the Norwegian Sorting voting to dissolve the union and calling a plebiscite on independence. While some in Sweden call for a hardline approach, the Swedish government agrees to negotiations.
June 1905: In a close election, the moderate monarchist Tan Sitong takes 52% of the vote to become the first elected Grand Chancellor of the Xianfa government, defeating the radical Kang Youwei, and republicans Huang Xing and Sun Yat-sen. He appoints an interim National Assembly composed of members drawn from the supporters of the four candidates in proportion to their share of votes in the election, resulting it being narrowly controlled by his supporters. However, in an effort to promote consensus, Tan includes the other candidates for Grand Chancellor within his cabinet.
June 1905: Despite facing considerable opposition and outright anger from the French military and political establishments, Emperor Napoleon IV continues to advocate for further French military reform, pushing though a program to develop modern artillery in addition the 75mm Mle 1897 with a 105mm field howitzer, a 127mm field gun and a 155mm heavy howitzer to be developed. He has also been forcefully advocating a change in doctrine away from the current aggressive offensive action based on a belief in elan in favour the British system of fire and movement developed in response to the Boer and Chinese Civil Wars. However here he has only been successful in increasing the ammunition allocation for musketry practice from 48 rounds per man per year to 80 rounds.
June 1905: Since the start of the Tangier Crisis over Morocco, Kaiser Wilhelm has been trying to force an international conference to resolve Morocco's future, particularly focusing on gaining US President Roosevelt and British Prime Minister Chamberlain's support for such a conference. While both have up to now been unwilling to become involved due to the ongoing Russo-Japanese War and unstable political situation in China, the crisis has deteriorated to the point where war between Germany and France appears possible. With both Britain and the US not wishing to face the distraction of a war in Europe, they pressure the French into agreeing to attend such an international conference.
June 1905: With the unrest in Russia sparked by the events of Bloody Sunday continuing to spread, the crew of the battleship Potempkin mutinies in Odessa. Several attempts to put down the mutiny, including attempts to sink the ship fail. Eventually the Potempkin's crew is given asylum in Romania and the ship returned to Russian control to be renamed the Panteleimon. But the mutiny has severely undermined the morale and reliability of the entire Russian armed forces.
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Interesting update!
The USA is going to learn the hard way and probably not through a war that building its ships on the cheap is not a good way to go about things heck, if the speed is compromised I'd be very worried about the layout and performance, of the plant as well as other systems. Since it will will effect maintenance duties and what passes to damage control, you may have engineers, fitters, wipers, stoakers and other specalisitst avoiding maintenance in some areas due to awkwardness and general poor arrangements on their part. Adding to this, they may need major yard time at some point to get a remodel and refit for this to fix the problems.
They could have potentially made themselves a massive budget and maintenance problem.
Still though musketry or lack of it will hurt also doesn't help that the French main infantry rifle at this point is rather cumbersome as well
*Winces*
The USA is going to learn the hard way and probably not through a war that building its ships on the cheap is not a good way to go about things heck, if the speed is compromised I'd be very worried about the layout and performance, of the plant as well as other systems. Since it will will effect maintenance duties and what passes to damage control, you may have engineers, fitters, wipers, stoakers and other specalisitst avoiding maintenance in some areas due to awkwardness and general poor arrangements on their part. Adding to this, they may need major yard time at some point to get a remodel and refit for this to fix the problems.
They could have potentially made themselves a massive budget and maintenance problem.
This will be a big leap foreward compared to OTL if it gets through the House of Commons and survives the lords then this will be massively ahead of OTL.
Same as OTL and shows what happens when you send a bunch of leaky buckets of rust with half-trained landsmen and the other half made up of the worst out to fight, heck they had to take on coal at sea OTL all that coal dust probably turned more than a few into floating bombs come to think of it. Still, though the same reform process will probably happen as OTL with the Tsar resuming power the same as OTL as well.
I think this is a big change from OTL not to sure since I'm not that up on my Indian history, still more reforms to India will do a lot to help also one way to incentivise it for the princes is more than likely to increase industrial and agricultural development as well as infrastructure and point out how much more money they will get heck some of the former Royal Houses even now are fabulously wealthy.
This is going to be a massive fight same as OTL though I think it's happening faster, a lot faster
Getting the Territorals organised is pretty much OTL though given from the previous posts something similar is happening in the rest of the Empire this will be a massive boost for trained manpower.
This is a smart move by the Chancellor if he can maintain the equilibrium in the council and do enough to keep the sides happy but given the South is sprinting when compared to the North right now with the US and British backing them, and with Russia potentially having massive internal problems I think that just leaves distant Germany who the foreign policy isn't that great at this point and Japan backing them.
I think it will take major combat to show the French army that Elan can't stop rifle rounds, machine gun fire and shells, still a major move though the stuffed shirts in both the French HighCom and Political bodies are starting to get restless I think Bony IV needs to take a step back from his reforms, but given the French will start the war with a more modern artillery park with a modern heavy gun will be a boost.
Still though musketry or lack of it will hurt also doesn't help that the French main infantry rifle at this point is rather cumbersome as well
I get the feeling that Wilhelm will end up alienating both the UK and the US as well as further pissing off the French at this conference.
Politicians the world over never like paying for navies, they're hugely expensive. And the US Congress at this time was one of the worst for that.
Watch this space
Russia is still more or less on the OTL track, as is Austria-Hungary, Germany and Italy.
India is well and truly on a path toward some form of balkanised home rule. And yes it's industrialising.
There will be an interesting kink in the path of south Africa and it's racism
This is actually similar to the otl
Southern China has a leg up but don't count the north out. Autocracies have the advantage of being able to act without regard for opposition in a way the democratic South can't
Napoleon is doing a good job of reforming the French military but also creating a huge amount of opposition. It'll just take one misstep on his part to get him sidelined
Ah Kaiser Willy, his ability to put his foot in it was seemingly endless
November 1909m: Continuing his reforms of the French Imperial Guard and unwilling to wait for the development of the proposed new self loading service rifle, Emperor Napoleon IV orders the adoption of a modified version of Berthier Mle 1902 Indochine rifle. With a shorter 60cm barrel and improved five round en-bloc clip, though still firing the existing 8mm Lebel cartridge, the new Mousqueton de Garde Impériale Modèle 1909 dit “Mousqueton Berthier de garde” will be a great improvident over the existing Lebel, roughly compatible with British SMLE, though the rifle is most frequently referred to simply as the Berthier guard rifle.
Exactly, but that's only for the 45,000 strong Imperial Guard, though when war comes it's advantages will rapidly become apparent. Basically it's the Berthier M1907/15 early.
Exactly, but that's only for the 45,000 strong Imperial Guard, though when war comes it's advantages will rapidly become apparent. Basically it's the Berthier M1907/15 early.
Frankly, Nappy IV really should be looking into adopting a new service cartridge. Normally I'd say that getting into the weeds on the precise virtues upon the virtues of the various cartridges is a exercise in frivolous nitpicking. They all have a bullet 6.5mm-8mm in caliber, a cartridge roughly 50-60 calibers in length.
But 8mm Lebel is just awful. At the very least, Nappy IV should push for an internal testing process to determine what (rimless) cartridge the French Military would actually want to have in service.
Normally I'd say that the exact parameters of the service cartridge just aren't that relevant. But I'll make an exception for 8mm Lebel.
8mm Lebel Dēlenda Est
But 8mm Lebel is just awful. At the very least, Nappy IV should push for an internal testing process to determine what (rimless) cartridge the French Military would actually want to have in service.
Normally I'd say that the exact parameters of the service cartridge just aren't that relevant. But I'll make an exception for 8mm Lebel.
8mm Lebel Dēlenda Est
The French army at the time were very well aware of the failings of both the Lebel rifle and round. and had been for some considerable time. The problem was they were determined their next rifle would be an even more revolutionary leap forward than small bore smokeless powder had been. Thus they were looking to develop a new rifle and cartridge right at the bleeding edge of the technology of the time. That and they cloaked the project in so much secrecy the various development teams had no idea what the others were doing. Thus those developing the rifle had no idea what cartridge they were designing it for and vis versa. The result was lot of time and money spent trying to develop the absolute perfect self loading military rifle/cartridge combination and failing dismally at it. They did actually eventually have a rifle and cartridge ready, just it was then mid 1914 and war was now staring them right in the face.
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That old adage about not letting perfect be the enemy of good would seem to rear its ugly head.
The French military prior to the Great War had very bad habit of doing that. A spoiler from 1906
February 1906: Despite being aware of the value of machine guns for many years, the French army currently has less than 250 in inventory, with all being allocated to either colonial or specialist troops due to an instance on adopting a weapon designed by a state arsenal. The product of that process, the Mitrailleuse Modèle 1905 dit “Mitrailleuse Puteaux” has proved a dismal failure. While the army wish to continue developing the Puteaux in an effort to correct its many faults, the Emperor argues for the immediate adoption of a proven design, arguing the recent Tangier Crisis has clearly demonstrated the need to have weapons available now. Eventually with the recent Chinese Civil and Russo-Japanese Wars having highlighted the role of machine guns in modern warfare, his argument wins out and the Hotchkiss Model 1900 is adopted as the Mitrailleuse Modèle 1906 dit “Mitrailleuse Hotchkiss” with two guns per infantry battalion or cavalry regiment.
Well it took around five months to develop the seven years between 1901 and 1907. Its taken me roughly two weeks to do the next four lol. I'm hoping I'll be able to pick the rate at which I update the timeline.
I don’t know if this is true in your timeline but OTL the Chauchat project was kicked off sometimes between 1903 and 1910 at APX, I have to wonder if the same holds true here but if they are still in development it could maybe be improved and continued, maybe with better sights.
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The chauchat is under development, the French have actually been investigating automatic weapons for some time and the chauchat was one of many projects they had going. Half of the problem they had was they were working on so different ideas. Dilution of effort was a big reason they never got anywhere in a reasonable time.
And maybe, if they could chamber it in something that wasn't 8mm Level, it wouldn't need a veritable banana of a magazine.
8mm Lebel Dēlenda Est!
8mm Lebel Dēlenda Est!
The cartridge was the problem. They basically had three different rifles ready to be tested around 1910 but no idea about the cartridge other than it should be some kind of rimless round. Even by 1913 they still hadn't finalised it.