Why the Chinese play cricket (an Imperial Federation timeline)

[Miss Construction]

Naval forces Spanish-American War

US Navy

Battleships

Texas class
6,200 tons, 2 x 12" BL barbette, 3 (6) x 6" BL, 2 (4) x 14” TT, 12" Nickel belt, 2" Nickel deck, 17 knots TE FT Coal
- Texas, ordered 1886, commissioned 1892
- Maine, ordered 1886, commissioned 1892

Indiana class
10,200 tons, 4 x 13" BL turret, 4 (8) x 8" BL, 2 (4) x 6” BL, 3 (6) x 18” TT, 18" Nickel belt, 3" Nickel deck, 15 knots TE FT Coal, low freeboard
- Indiana, ordered 1890, commissioned 1895
- Massachusetts, ordered 1890, commissioned 1896
- Oregon, ordered 1890, commissioned 1896

Iowa class
11,400 tons, 4 x 12" turret, 4 (8) x 8", 3 (6) x 4”, 2 (4) x 18” TT, 14" Harvey belt, 3" Harvey deck, 16 knots TE FT Coal
- Iowa, ordered 1892, commissioned 1897

Armoured Cruisers

Brandywine class
6,700 tons. 2 (4) x 10” BL turrets, 3 (6) x 6” BL, 2 (4) x 14” TT, 12” Nickel belt, 2” Nickel deck, 17 knots TE FT Coal
- Brandywine, ordered 1886, commissioned 1892
- Saratoga, ordered 1886, commissioned 1892
- Lexington, ordered 1886, commissioned 1892
- Ticonderoga, ordered 1886, commissioned 1892, lost Spanish-American War

Kearsage class
8,200 tons, 5 (6) x 8" BL turrets, 6 (12) x 4", 1 (3) x 14” TT 1 fwd, 4" Nickel belt, 3" Nickel deck, 20 knots CE FT Coal
- Kearsage, ordered 1887, commissioned 1892
- Shenandoah, ordered 1887, commissioned 1892
- Antietam, ordered 1888, commissioned 1893
- Intrepid, ordered 1888, commissioned 1893

Bunker Hill class
9,200 tons, 6 (8) x 8" turrets, 6 (12) x 5", 2 (5) x 14” TT 1 fwd, 3" Harvey belt, 3" Harvey deck, 20 knots TE FT Coal
- Bunker Hill, ordered 1892, commissioned 1896
- Yorktown, ordered 1892, commissioned 1896

Cruisers

Atlanta class
3,200 tons, 2 x 8" BL, 3 (6) x 6" BL, 0” belt, 1.5" Nickel deck, 13 knots CE FT Coal
- Atlanta, ordered 1883, commissioned 1886
- Boston, ordered 1883, commissioned 1887

Chicago class
4,500 tons, 2 (4) x 8" BL, 4 (8) x 6" BL, 0” belt, 0” deck, 14 knots CE FT Coal
- Chicago, ordered 1883, commissioned 1889
- Denver, ordered 1883, commissioned 1889

Newark class
4,100 tons, 6 (12) x 6" BL, 3” Nickel slope, 2" Nickel deck, 18 knots TE FT Coal
- Newark, ordered 1885, commissioned 1893

Charleston class
3,800 tons, 2 x 8" BL, 3 (6) x 6" BL, 3"Nickel slope, 2" Nickel deck, 19 knots CE FT Coal
- Charleston, ordered 1885, commissioned 1889

Baltimore class
4,400 tons,2 (4) x 8" BL, 3 (6) x 6" BL, 4” Nickel slope, 2.5" Nickel deck, 19 knots TE FT Coal
- Baltimore, ordered 1887, commissioned 1890

Philadelphia class
4,300 tons, 6 (12) x 6 BL", 0” belt, 0” deck, 19 knots TE FT Coal
- Philadelphia, ordered 1887, commissioned 1890

San Francisco class
4,100 tons, 6 (12) x 6 BL", 3” Nickel slope, 2" Nickel deck, 19 knots TE FT Coal
- San Francisco, ordered 1887, commissioned 1890

Olympia class
5,900 tons, 4 (2) x 8" BL, 5 (10) x 5", 3 (6) x 18” TT, 5” Nickel slope, 2" Nickel deck, 20 knots TE FT Coal
- Olympia, ordered 1888, commissioned 1895

Cincinnati class
3,200 tons, 1 x 6", 5 (10) x 5", 2 (4) x 18” TT, 2” Nickel slope, 1" Nickel deck, 19 knots TE FT Coal
- Cincinnati, ordered 1888, commissioned 1894
- Raleigh, ordered 1888, commissioned 1894

Montgomery class
2,100 tons, 5 (9) x 5", 1 (3) x 18” TT 1 fwd, 0” belt, 0” deck, 17 knots TE FT Coal
- Montgomery, ordered 1888, commissioned 1894
- Detroit, ordered 1888, commissioned 1893
- Marblehead, ordered 1888, commissioned 1894

Columbia class
7,400 tons, 1 x 8", 1 (2) x 6", 4 (8) x 4”, 2 (4) x 18” TT, 4” Nickel slope, 2.5" Nickel deck, 21 knots TE FT Coal
- Colombia, ordered 1890, commissioned 1894
- Minneapolis, ordered 1891, commissioned 1894

Fort Worth class
2,600 tons, 4 (6) x 5", 2 (4) x 18” TT, 1” Harvey slope, 0.5" Harvey deck, 23 knots TE FT Coal
- Fort Worth, ordered 1894, commissioned 1898
- Fort Wayne, ordered 1894, commissioned 1898

New Orleans class
3,800 tons, 3 (6) x 6", 2 (4) x 4.7", 1 (3) x 18” TT 1 fwd, 2” slope, 1" deck, 20 knots TE FT Coal
- New Orleans (ex Brazilian Minas Gerais), ordered 1894, purchased 1895, commissioned 1896,
- Albany (ex Brazilian Sao Paulo), ordered 1894, purchased 1895, commissioned 1896

Monitors

Puritan class (Supposed repair)
6,100 tons, 4 x 12" BL turret, 7 (14) x 6 BL”, 12” Steel belt, 2" Steel deck, 12.5 knots CE FT Coal, very low freeboard
- Puritan, ordered 1885, commissioned 1896

Amphitrite class (Supposed repair)
3,400 tons, 4 x 10" BL turret, 2 (4) x 4”, 18" Nickel belt, 3" Nickel deck, 15 knots CE FT Coal, very low freeboard
- Amphitrite, ordered 1886, commissioned 1895
- Monadnock, ordered 1886, commissioned 1896
- Terror, ordered 1886, commissioned 1896
- Miantonomoh, ordered 1886, commissioned 1891

Roanoke class (Supposed repair)
4,100 tons, 2 x 12" BL turret, 2 x 10” BL turret, 13” Nickel belt, 3" Nickel deck, 13.5 knots TE WT Coal, very low freeboard
- Roanoke, ordered 1887, commissioned 1893

Spanish Navy

Battleships

Pelayo class
5,600 tons, 2 x 12.5" BL barbette, 2 x 11" BL barbette, 6 (12) x 4.7" BL, 2 (5) x 14” TT 1 fwd, 18" Steel belt, 3" Steel deck, 16 knots CE FT Coal
- Pelayo, ordered 1884, commissioned 1887

Pelayo (rebuilt) class
5,600 tons, 2 x 12.5" BL barbette, 2 x 11" BL barbette, 5 (10) x 5.5", 2 (5) x 14” TT 1 fwd, 18" Steel belt, 3" Steel deck, 17 knots CE WT Coal
- Pelayo, rebuilt 1897, recommissioned 1899

Numancia class
5,600 tons, 4 x 9.2" BL turret, 3 (6) x 5.5" BL, 2 (5) x 14” TT 1 fwd, 11" Compound belt, 3" Compound deck, 17 knots CE FT Coal
- Numancia (ex Brazilian Riachuelo), ordered 1881, commissioned 1883, purchased 1897

Tetuan class
4,900 tons, 2 x 9.2" BL turret, 2 (4) x 5.5" BL, 2 (5) x 14” TT 1 fwd, 11" Compound belt, 3" Compound deck, 17 knots CE FT Coal
- Tetuan (ex Brazilian Aquidaban), ordered 1883, commissioned 1885, purchased 1897

Arapilus class
6,900 tons, 3 (4) x 9.4” BL turret, 4 (8) x 4.7", 2 (4) x 18” TT, 12" Steel belt, 2" Steel deck, 18 knots TE FT Coal
- Arapilus (ex Brazilian Alagoas), ordered 1886, commissioned 1889, purchased 1897
- Zaragosa (ex Brazilian Mato Groso), ordered 1886, commissioned 1889, purchased 1897

Armoured Cruisers

Infanta Maria Teresa class
6,900 tons, 2 x 11" BL, 4 (8) x 3", 3 (8) x 14” TT 1 fwd 1 stn, 12" Compound belt, 3" Compound deck, 20 knots TE FT Coal
- Infanta Maria Teresa, ordered 1889, commissioned 1893
- Vizcaya, ordered 1889, commissioned 1893
- Almirante Oquendo, ordered 1889, commissioned 1893

Emperador Carlos V class
9,100 tons, 2 x 11" BL, 4 (8) x 5.5", 3 (8) x 14” TT 1 fwd 1 stn, 2” Compound belt, 6.5" Compound deck, 20 knots TE WT Coal
- Emperador Carlos V, ordered 1889, commissioned 1893

Protected Cruisers

Isla De Luzon class
4,700 tons, 3 (6) x 6.4" BL, 2.5” Compound slope, 1" Compound deck, 16 knots TE FT Coal
- Isla De Luzon, ordered 1886, commissioned 1889
- Isla De Cuba, ordered 1886, commissioned 1889
- Marques De La Ensenada, ordered 1886, commissioned 1889

Reigna Regente class
4,700 tons, 4 x 8" BL, 3 (6) x 4.7”, 4” Compound slope, 2.5" Compound deck, 2.5 knots TE FT Coal
- Reigna Regente, ordered 1887, commissioned 1890, wrecked 1895
- Alfonso XIII, ordered 1891, commissioned 1894
- Lepanto, ordered 1892, commissioned 1895

Carmen class
2,000 tons, 2 (4) x 6", 1 (2) x 4.7", 1 (3) x 14” TT 1 fwd, 2.5" Steel slope, 1.5" Steel deck, 18 knots CE FT Coal
- Carmen (ex Brazilian Amazonas), ordered 1886, commissioned 1889, purchased 1897
- Alamansa (ex Brazilian Almirante Abreu), ordered 1886, commissioned 1889, purchased 1897

Unprotected Cruisers

Aragon class
3,300 tons, 3 (4) x 6" BL, 1 (2) x 4.7" BL, 1 (2) x 14” TT, 0” belt, 0" deck, 14 knots CE FT Coal
- Aragon, ordered 1879, commissioned 1885
- Navarra, ordered 1879, commissioned 1885
- Castilla, ordered 1879, commissioned 1885

Velasco class
1,150 tons, 3 (4) x 4.7" BL, 1 (2) x 4.7" BL, 1 (2) x 14” TT, 0” belt, 0" deck, 13 knots CE FT Coal
- Velasco, ordered 1881, commissioned 1883
- Gravina, ordered 1881, commissioned 1883
- Infanta Isabel, ordered 1885, commissioned 1889
- Isabel II, ordered 1885, commissioned 1889
- Cristóbal Colon, ordered 1885, commissioned 1889
- Don Juan De Austria, ordered 1885, commissioned 1889
- Don Antonio Uloa, ordered 1885, commissioned 1889
- Conte Del Venadito, ordered 1885, commissioned 1889

Alfonso XII class
3,040 tons, 3 (6) x 6.4" BL, 1 (2) x 4.7" BL, 2 (5) x 14” TT 1 fwd, 0” belt, 0" deck, 14 knots CE FT Coal
- Alfonso XII, ordered 1881, commissioned 1895
- Reina Cristina, ordered 1881, commissioned 1895
- Reina Mercedes, ordered 1881, commissioned 1895

 

[The_Count]

Numancia class
5,600 tons, 4 x 9.2" BL turret, 3 (6) x 5.5" BL, 2 (5) x 14” TT 1 fwd, 11" Compound belt, 3" Compound deck, 17 knots CE FT Coal
- Numancia (ex Brazilian Riachuelo), ordered 1881, commissioned 1883, purchased 1898

Tetuan class
4,900 tons, 2 x 9.2" BL turret, 2 (4) x 5.5" BL, 2 (5) x 14” TT 1 fwd, 11" Compound belt, 3" Compound deck, 17 knots CE FT Coal
- Tetuan (ex Brazilian Aquidaban), ordered 1883, commissioned 1885, purchased 1898

Arapilus class
6,900 tons, 3 (4) x 9.4” BL turret, 4 (8) x 4.7", 2 (4) x 18” TT, 12" Steel belt, 2" Steel deck, 18 knots TE FT Coal
- Arapilus (ex Brazilian Alagoas), ordered 1886, commissioned 1889, purchased 1898
- Zaragosa (ex Brazilian Mato Groso), ordered 1886, commissioned 1889, purchased 1898

Carmen class
2,000 tons, 2 (4) x 6", 1 (2) x 4.7", 1 (3) x 14” TT 1 fwd, 2.5" Steel slope, 1.5" Steel deck, 18 knots CE FT Coal
- Carmen (ex Brazilian Amazonas), ordered 1886, commissioned 1889, purchased 1898
- Alamansa (ex Brazilian Almirante Abreu), ordered 1886, commissioned 1889, purchased 1898

So... I just happened to be lurking around several forums on a search for some good naval content and stumbled upon yours... I'm just wondering... is there a backstory as to how Spain purchased several of these ships from Brazil? Also, is there any historical evidence of Brazil putting both of their ironclads on sale for any possible customers or it's just something done specifically in this timeline? It's fascinating how a war can make a country that seems to be on the brink of bankruptcy (perhaps an exaggeration on my part) suddenly produce enough to money to purchase equipment.

(Also, what exactly is the significance of the numbers enclosed in the parentheses?)

 

[Miss Construction]

So... I just happened to be lurking around several forums on a search for some good naval content and stumbled upon yours... I'm just wondering... is there a backstory as to how Spain purchased several of these ships from Brazil? Also, is there any historical evidence of Brazil putting both of their ironclads on sale for any possible customers or it's just something done specifically in this timeline? It's fascinating how a war can make a country that seems to be on the brink of bankruptcy (perhaps an exaggeration on my part) suddenly produce enough to money to purchase equipment.

(Also, what exactly is the significance of the numbers enclosed in the parentheses?)

Argentina, Brazil and Chile have a history of selling off warships to other nations facing or even at war. But the back story to this one is rather long.

It starts with James Blaine's attempted intervention in the War of the Pacific when he was US Secretary of State in 1881. This went pretty much as the OTL with him attempting to block Chile from any gains and resulted in the war dragging on for several more years.

As in the OTL Blaine was replaced as Secretary of State when Garfield was assassinated so his attempted intervention went as per the OTL. But the change is Blaine won against Grover Cleveland in 1884 becoming the 22nd US president, bringing with him his Anglophobia and belief the British were behind the Chilean actions. So when Chile intervened in the Panama Crisis in 1885 and forced the US to back down as per the OTL, Blaine was utterly convinced the British were behind it and trying to take control of South America.

This had three flow on effects. First off the expansion of the US navy under Blaine was much larger than the OTL (roughly twice as many ships ordered). This means rather than having eight major armoured warships during the Spanish-American War, the US had sixteen. Though one did blow up as per the OTL triggering the war.

The second was Blaine trying to build an anti Anglo-Chilean bloc in South America. He particularly focused on Argentina and Brazil in this. This sparked a three way South American Naval Arms Race between Argentina Brazil and Chile, with all of them spending huge amounts on new warships.

The third flow on was as part of Blaine's plan a US military mission was sent to Brazil to help improve their army. The head of this mission discovered the planned 1889 coup to overthrow Pedro II and alerted the Brazilian PM Afonso Celso. This enable Celso to preempt the coup and thus the Brazilian monarchy survived, with the Brazilian navy playing an important role in defeating the coup.

All this meant when the Argentinan financial crisis hit in 1890 plunging Argentina, Brazil and Chile into a major economic depression, the naval arms race continued. Eventually around 1895 the combination of the ruinous costs of the arms race, combined with British and US (Cleveland defeated Blaine in 1888 and reversed his anti British foreign policy) fears of a war between Argentina and Chile brought an end to the arms race in 1895.

So in the mid 1890s Brazil was in a major economic depression and possessed a large very expensive modern navy it couldn't really afford. The solution adopted by Rodriguez Alves, the Brazilian PM at the time, was very simply to sell off a large part of it in 1897. At this point, tensions between the US and Spanish were rising, hence the Spanish purchased those Brazilian ships to face the much larger than OTL US navy.

Btw the Brazilians didn't sell off their entire navy. They kept the most modern ships, two US built armoured cruisers and two British built protected cruisers. You can find the ships from the South American naval arms race here

Miss C's Design Notes #6

And getting back to your other question. In the ship data. When listing armament the first number is the weapons which are able to bear on broadside, the second in parentheses is the total number of weapons the ship has of that type. Thus HMS dreadnought would be 8 (10) x 12". Meaning while she is armed with 10 twelve inch guns, only 8 can fire broadside.

There are more details of what everything in the ship data means, plus links to all the ship data posts from this TL here

Naval Matters

 

[Miss Construction]

This was set to happen in January 1898, but makes a lot more sense if I shift it forwards a few months

November 1897: With Relations with the US rapidly deteriorating, the Spanish purchase the former Brazilian battleships Riachuelo, Aquidaban, Alagoas, and Mato Groso, along with the cruisers Amazonas and Almirante Abreu. These additions will more than double the number of modern armoured ships in the Spanish navy.

=McUpdate=

 

[Dragonboy]

Let's hope this make a difference.

 

[Miss Construction]

Let's hope this make a difference.

Somewhat is all I can say. The ships are old and the USN much larger than the OTL.

 

[Dragonboy]

Somewhat is all I can say. The ships are old and the USN much larger than the OTL.

Gonna keep that in mind.

 

[The_Count]

And getting back to your other question. In the ship data. When listing armament the first number is the weapons which are able to bear on broadside, the second in parentheses is the total number of weapons the ship has of that type. Thus HMS dreadnought would be 8 (10) x 12". Meaning while she is armed with 10 twelve inch guns, only 8 can fire broadside.

What exactly are the positions of the Alagoas class battleship's main battery? I suppose the positions of the 9.4-inch guns are similar to those of the previous Brazilian battleships as well the Chinese battleships (Dingyuan and Zhenyuan) in which the turrets are positioned parallel (of sorts) to each other or are they already positioned like the main batteries of the pre-dreadnoughts?

Also, if you will pardon another question... seeing that Spain has acquired all these "new" ships from Brazil... I don't suppose they'll have a more favourable ending (The US navy will lose several ships, suffer more casualties, be delayed in their conquest of Cuba etc. not necessarily win the war, of course) in this timeline?

 

[Miss Construction]

And I thought I'd safely left the 1870s well behind. But this is a change that would have needed to be made fairly early ITTL

September 1874: As part of his policy of furthering the integration of India into the Empire, Viceroy Lord Lytton enacts the Indian Gold Currency Act moving India from the silver to the gold standard. Under its terms, the silver Indian rupee is to be replaced by the gold Indian pound, at a rate of fifteen rupee to one pound. While this will have a beneficial impact on the Indian economy in time, it will provoke fierce resentment among the Indian population and cause considerable short term disruption.

=McUpdate=

 

[Miss Construction]

What exactly are the positions of the Alagoas class battleship's main battery? I suppose the positions of the 9.4-inch guns are similar to those of the previous Brazilian battleships as well the Chinese battleships (Dingyuan and Zhenyuan) in which the turrets are positioned parallel (of sorts) to each other or are they already positioned like the main batteries of the pre-dreadnoughts?

Also, if you will pardon another question... seeing that Spain has acquired all these "new" ships from Brazil... I don't suppose they'll have a more favourable ending (The US navy will lose several ships, suffer more casualties, be delayed in their conquest of Cuba etc. not necessarily win the war, of course) in this timeline?

The origins of the Brazilian Alagoas class is interesting and again a result of the impact President Blaine's Anglophobic butterflies on the TL. As per the OTL there was a serious uprising against Colombian rule in Panama in April 1885. And again as per the OTL the US intervened, sending warships and landing marines, claiming they had the right to restore order under an 1846 treaty.

This was widely perceived as the first step toward US annexation of Panama. In response the Chileans, at the time courting Colombia as a potential ally against Peru after the War of the Pacific, dispatched the protected cruiser Esmeralda to Panama with orders to "stop a US annexation by any means necessary." This is all as per the OTL.

In the OTL there was some doubt whether or not the US was planning on annexation (still is apparently), but ITTL with Blaine as president it looked a lot more likely. However, since the Esmeralda could have single handedly sunk the entire US navy at the time, the US was forced into a humiliating back down. The result was widespread anger toward Chile in the US, with Blaine blaming the British. He believed they were behind the Chilean actions, just like his belief they were behind the Chileans in the War of the Pacific. He actually couldn't have been more wrong in both cases, the British were scrupulously staying out of things exactly to avoid harming relations with the US. But Blaine believed it anyway.

As a result, Blaine slapped an economic embargo on Chile, started his push for a South American anti Anglo-Chilean alliance and began pushing for a very large expansion of the US navy. The Chilean reaction, realising they were now facing the prospect of the US backing Argentina in its territorial dispute with Chile over the Straits of Magellan, not to mention the US itself, was to begin a naval expansion program. This was what kicked off the South American Naval Arms Race ITTL.

The Chileans started by ordering an ironclad battleship and two protected cruisers. As usual at the time, the called for tenders from leading European ship builders for them and naturally several companies from various nations submitted designs. Now a French company actually submitted the lowest tender and normally would have got the contract. However those Blaine butterflies showed up again.

ITTL the Chileans were staring down the barrel of US hostility and very actively trying get a lot closer ties to the British and not above using plum warship contracts to do that. So the order went to Samuda in Britain (actually an enlarged and improved Riachuelo), despite the French design being cheaper, though only a little over 1%. This caused all sorts of allegations of British interference in the bidding, further convincing Blaine the British and Chileans were in cahoots.

But anyway, when Brazilian's joined the arms race, helped by the US arranging favourable loans, and called for tenders to build two ironclad battleships, the French company submitted their already existing design. Thus they got the contract despite Blaine pushing hard for if to go to a US company. So the Alagoas follows the French pattern of four single turrets in a lozenge kind of layout, two turrets in line forward and two in line aft. I believe it can theoretically give three guns available on certain bearings.

As to if these extra Spanish ships will impact the Spanish-American War? Well another Blaine butterfly is the USN is significantly larger going into the war. I had actually gamed out the two naval battles of the war a while ago solo and they did have a minor impact. But recently one of my girlfriends has volunteered to join me in gaming out naval battles from the TL, so I'm redoing them. Fighting each out a few times, swapping sides so she can get a hang of the rules before a definitive game, so don't have the final results yet (one reason the TL is on hold). However all indications are yes, the increased Spanish naval strength will have a impact, and it will be more significant than in my earlier solo battles.

 

[Miss Construction]

What exactly are the positions of the Alagoas class battleship's main battery? I suppose the positions of the 9.4-inch guns are similar to those of the previous Brazilian battleships as well the Chinese battleships (Dingyuan and Zhenyuan) in which the turrets are positioned parallel (of sorts) to each other or are they already positioned like the main batteries of the pre-dreadnoughts?

Also, if you will pardon another question... seeing that Spain has acquired all these "new" ships from Brazil... I don't suppose they'll have a more favourable ending (The US navy will lose several ships, suffer more casualties, be delayed in their conquest of Cuba etc. not necessarily win the war, of course) in this timeline?

I'd forgotten another Blaine butterfly which is relevant here. After having lost the Chilean contract and seeing an Argentinan contract go to another British yard, the French company (La Seyne) were very keen to get the Brazilian order. So they resorted to bribery to increase their odds. This would become public in early 1889 (a different butterfly, one of the Boulanger butterflies is responsible for that), creating a scandal in Brazil. This resulted in Afonso Celso moving to reactivate the Brazilian National Guard as a counter to a potential army coup sooner than he did in the OTL. This brought forward the 1889 coup attempt a few months, giving the plotters less time to build up their support base, contributing to it's failure ITTL.

 

[UrbanNight]

September 1874: As part of his policy of furthering the integration of India into the Empire, Viceroy Lord Lytton enacts the Indian Gold Currency Act moving India from the silver to the gold standard. Under its terms, the silver Indian rupee is to be replaced by the gold Indian pound, at a rate of fifteen rupee to one pound. While this will have a beneficial impact on the Indian economy in time, it will provoke fierce resentment among the Indian population and cause considerable short term disruption.

Is this a decimalised pound or £sd-pound?

 

[Miss Construction]

Is this a decimalised pound or £sd-pound?

Traditional old fashioned one pound = twenty shillings = twelve pence. Lytton was extremely socially conservative and deliberately trying to tie India to Britain. There is absolutely no way he'd go for some as radical as decimalisation. Mind you, at he time the Indian rupee was divided into 16 anna each of which was made up of 4 pice, so not decimalised either. Also since one old rupee can be broken down into 64 pice, and as the act makes one of the new Indian pounds equal to 15 old rupee, this gives 960 pice to a new pound, exactly the same number as fathings in that pound. The choice was very deliberate.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Traditional old fashioned one pound = twenty shillings = twelve pence. Lytton was extremely socially conservative and deliberately trying to tie India to Britain. There is absolutely no way he'd go for some as radical as decimalisation. Mind you, at he time the Indian rupee was divided into 16 anna each of which was made up of 4 pice, so not decimalised either. Also since one old rupee can be broken down into 64 pice, and the act makes one of the new Indian pounds equal to 15 old rupee, this gives 960 pice to a new pound, exactly the same number as fathings in that pound. The choice was very deliberate.

Has the Ceylonese rupee been decimalised ITTL?

Meanwhile, the Indian and Burmese rupee wouldn't be decimalised until the 1950s IOTL, so it's not as if there isn't precedence for not decimalising them ITTL yet. (Pakistan wouldn't decimalise until 1961.)

 

[Miss Construction]

Has the Ceylonese rupee been decimalised ITTL?

Meanwhile, the Indian and Burmese rupee wouldn't be decimalised until the 1950s IOTL, so it's not as if there isn't precedence for not decimalising them ITTL yet. (Pakistan wouldn't decimalise until 1961.)

Ceylon went over to the Indian rupee in 1836, so it converts to the new Indian pound at the same time as India in 1873. Burma won't be conquered until 1885. It was directly incorporated into British India as a province, hence it too goes to the Indian pound. After this, the only part of the British Empire not using the pound will be Canada with its dollar tied to the US currency. And changing that would take one hell of a shit fight, but it will have to happen for any Imperial Federation to work. Still not sure how I am going to swing that lol.

 

[Stark]

Ceylon went over to the Indian rupee in 1836, so it converts to the new Indian pound at the same time as India in 1873. Burma won't be conquered until 1885. It was directly incorporated into British India as a province, hence it too goes to the Indian pound. After this, the only part of the British Empire not using the pound will be Canada with its dollar tied to the US currency. And changing that would take one hell of a shit fight, but it will have to happen for any Imperial Federation to work. Still not sure how I am going to swing that lol.

Don't know either but hope you think of something!

(don't know because I know little of Canadian dollar, not because I think it's impossible)

 

[Miss Construction]

Don't know either but hope you think of something!

(don't know because I know little of Canadian dollar, not because I think it's impossible)

I'd actually forgotten about Hong Kong and the Straits Settlement which both used the Chinese silver tael. But when China splits, the southern Xianfa Dynasty will switch from the silver based tale to a gold based yuan. So those two will move to a gold pound around that time. But yes Canada (and Newfoundland, lets not forget they didn't join Canada till 1948) is the tricky one. I don't think its impossible either though, Canada accept the gold sovereign as legal tender alongside the Canadian dollar right up to the end of the 2nd WW from memory, so think it can be done.

 

[Miss Construction]

Don't know either but hope you think of something!

(don't know because I know little of Canadian dollar, not because I think it's impossible)

Just done some qucik and dirty research. The Canadian dollar was tied to both the pound sterling and US dollar at right up until the Great Depression. The rate was one to one between the US and Canadian dollars, with one pound sterling equal to 4.86666 Canadian dollars (roughly 49.315 pence). So a switch is possible, though bound to generate a LOT of resistance in Canada and the Empire. Another issue is likely to be the Canadians wanting to keep a decimalised currency. So if a common Imperial Pound is possible it will almost certainly be a major revision to the currency of the entire Empire.

I'm looking along the lines of the pound being split into two Imperial dollars (equating to the existing half sovereign division of the pound which was commonly called a dollar) which would be divided into ten shillings of ten new pence,. This would put a Canadian dollar equal to about 41.1 new pence or two shillings and one new penny. The conversions are very awkward and the scale of change almost guarantees a huge shit fight to make happen, but possible. Regardless, this issue will almost certainly prevent a common Imperial currency till quite late in the formation of the Imperial Commonwealth.

 

[UrbanNight]

Just done some qucik and dirty research. The Canadian dollar was tied to both the pound sterling and US dollar at right up until the Great Depression. The rate was one to one between the US and Canadian dollars, with one pound sterling equal to 4.86666 Canadian dollars (roughly 49.315 pence). So a switch is possible, though bound to generate a LOT of resistance in Canada and the Empire. Another issue is likely to be the Canadians wanting to keep a decimalised currency. So if a common Imperial Pound is possible it will almost certainly be a major revision to the currency of the entire Empire.

I'm looking along the lines of the pound being split into two Imperial dollars (equating to the existing half sovereign division of the pound which was commonly called a dollar) which would be divided into ten shillings of ten new pence,. This would put a Canadian dollar equal to about 41.1 new pence or two shillings and one new penny. The conversions are very awkward and the scale of change almost guarantees a huge shit fight to make happen, but possible. Regardless, this issue will almost certainly prevent a common Imperial currency till quite late in the formation of the Imperial Commonwealth.

Interestingly, at this time a number of financial and insurance companies were using the Pound-and-Mil scheme, where they would keep records as £X.XXX (£1 = 1000 mils) and then convert to pounds, shillings, and pence when paying out. When the U.K. was looking at decimalisation in the 1800s, the Pound-and-Mil scheme was recommended by a number of Royal Commissions formed to investigate decimal coinage and led to the introduction of the florin at 2 shillings, 1/10th pound. Preliminary Report of the Decimal Coinage Commission, 1857

 

[Miss Construction]

Interestingly, at this time a number of financial and insurance companies were using the Pound-and-Mil scheme, where they would keep records as £X.XXX (£1 = 1000 mils) and then convert to pounds, shillings, and pence when paying out. When the U.K. was looking at decimalisation in the 1800s, the Pound-and-Mil scheme was recommended by a number of Royal Commissions formed to investigate decimal coinage and led to the introduction of the florin at 2 shillings, 1/10th pound. Preliminary Report of the Decimal Coinage Commission, 1857

That scheme works fine for financial institutions. But to get a new currency to be accepted and work, you have to have the general population will to use it in their day to day lives. This is actually what plagued British attempts to convert all their colonies over to the sterling system in the first half of the 19th century and why it failed in Hong Kong and India. And the thing you have to overcome to get a new currency accepted is the inertia general familiarity with the old currency breeds, which means simplicity of conversion is the key. That's why Lytton deliberately made the new Indian pound convert perfectly to the old Indian pice.

As it stands, there is just no simply way to convert the Canadian dollar to the pound sterling system, nor can there be one while its tied to both the US dollar and pound sterling. For any common Imperial currency to be possible, you have to delink the Canadian dollar from the US dollar, leaving solely tied to the British pound sterling. You can then revalue it slightly (ideally from 4.8666 dollars to the pound to five dollars to the pound) This is not as difficult as first seems. Tying their currency to both the US dollar and pound sterling meant the Canadian government had very little control over monetary policy, causing periods of rapid economic expansion and contraction which they couldn't prevent. So there are definite advantages to Canada in linking to just one of them.

But thinking about currency brought up something else I'd overlooked. This is actually a direct copy and paste from the OTL. Only with some extra unexpected consequences thrown in.

June 1885: With Britain having become Chile's largest single trade partner and British interests taking an increasingly dominant position in its domestic economy, Chile ties the Chilean peso to the British pound sterling, rather than its previous link to the French franc and a rate of one Chilean peso to one and a half British shillings. Though this move is driven purely by economic concerns, it serves to further convince US President Blaine of the existence of a secret Anglo-Chilean alliance and a hidden British plot to replace US influence in South America.

=McUpdate=