Why no Spain-wank?

[counterblitzkrieg]

AH.com is rife full of wanked country in the many timelines. There are Britwank, Ameriwank, Chinawank, Romanwank, Russiawank and whatever. There's even a timeline on Korea-wank!

But I can't seem to find a 'Spain-wank' timeline. Last time I check, the Spanish managed to create a large empire in the Americas. What I noticed is that none of the timelines I've seen let the Spanish keep their American possessions, it's always broken up and/or taken by foreign powers. In some cases, Spain itself was broken up!

Is Spain destined to be AH.com's butt monkey?

 

[Plumber]

OTL is kinda a Spain-wank already in the early modern age. IMO the reason why Spain isn't wanked is because both the Ameriwank and Britwank (the two most common wanks since this is an English-speaking board) ultimately cause Spain to lose more power.

 

[Dan1988]

Spain in OTL is pretty much a Castile-wank - not a very good wank, but a wank nonetheless. Having Spain retain its American possessions is pretty much a Castile-bukkake.

 

[MNP]

AH.com is rife full of wanked country in the many timelines. There are Britwank, Ameriwank, Chinawank, Romanwank, Russiawank and whatever. There's even a timeline on Korea-wank!

But I can't seem to find a 'Spain-wank' timeline. Last time I check, the Spanish managed to create a large empire in the Americas. What I noticed is that none of the timelines I've seen let the Spanish keep their American possessions, it's always broken up and/or taken by foreign powers. In some cases, Spain itself was broken up!

Is Spain destined to be AH.com's butt monkey?

Spain in OTL is pretty much a Castile-wank - not a very good wank, but a wank nonetheless. Having Spain retain its American possessions is pretty much a Castile-bukkake.

What do you call this Kemosabe?

 

[Dan1988]

What do you call this Kemosabe?

A bukkake of the highest degree.

 

[hsthompson]

AH.com is rife full of wanked country in the many timelines. There are Britwank, Ameriwank, Chinawank, Romanwank, Russiawank and whatever. There's even a timeline on Korea-wank!

But I can't seem to find a 'Spain-wank' timeline. Last time I check, the Spanish managed to create a large empire in the Americas. What I noticed is that none of the timelines I've seen let the Spanish keep their American possessions, it's always broken up and/or taken by foreign powers. In some cases, Spain itself was broken up!

Is Spain destined to be AH.com's butt monkey?

OTL, rather than a Spain-wank, has been Castile playing Dominatrix to any other Iberian nationality that it can get her high heel boots upon.

Bugger Spain-wanks, and give me an Aragon-gasm.

Unfortunately I do not have either the ability, or the time... RL, y'know.

Mimeyo, are you reading this? For a POD, try getting Pere II to win the battle of Muret. Or, for absolute total wankage, get Pere III to live another 40 years to ripe old age...

 

[wilcoxchar]

OTL is a Habsburg-wank, not a Spain-wank. Spain could keep the Netherlands if they'd gone with a better religious policy and hadn't gotten tied down with Austria's shitty foreign policy decisions. They also probably could have kept Portugal and gotten much more of the Americas earlier.

 

[B_Munro]

Nugax's British Tartary world lacks a TL, but is definitely a Spanish-wank...

(I hope you don't mind, Nugax)

Bruce

 

[I Blame Communism]

Grrr. Half of this is nonsense!

1) "Spain is already wanked". Is nobody aware of the extreme bad luck which set in and brought about the decline of an empire that was even to its very end massively more functional and sustainable than everyone seems to think? Further, is anyone aware that if any country is "wanked OTL" (a term which I disagree with: a wank is supposed to be implausible, nationalistic, and silly and not a term of pride; OTL is by definition plausible), it's America, and we're still happy to wank it?

2) "Evil Castillians dominate everybody else forever, and Spain can't be ay more succesful because then the evil Castillians would be even more succesful!" I don't see anyone complaining that Britwanks aren't allowed because it would just be "England bukake". Which it of course would not be; and there's far more to Spain than mega-Castille.

To answer the question, I think it's because people let their romantical instincts get the better of reason when it comes to lost kingdoms and independence movements (look at all the people who insist that Scotland is a victim of Evil English Genocide without having ever set foot here), because Spain still labours under a "black legend" in the conscience of many Anglophones, and because you have to carve it up to wank other countries.

 

[MNP]

I don't see anyone complaining that Britwanks aren't allowed because it would just be "England bukake".

I think there are too many Britwanks on this board for just that reason and I have mentioned it to some people, Alex Richards for example. Sorry.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

I assume there are many TLs lacking a more successful Spain (I will use that term rather than wank) as it was rather OTL. Given the brief period of Pax Hispania, few are eager to try and make it last longer, or make it better. Alternate history is often the domain of the underdog, to see countries that were otherwise weak to raise to glory, often at the detriment of others. Some TLs ignore Spain -- in early TLs it will be fairly powerful but certainly crash, possibly losing a variety of territories. In later TLs, it staggers along like the true Sick Man of Europe, nothing happening besides a few revolutions or coups.

There are many ways to wank Spain rather than maintaining it's American Empire or not collapsing totally. My TL might be considered an Iberian wank as it features a Spanish-Portuguese union under the Aviz: gold from Mexico and Peru will soon go into aiding the Portuguese commercial empire, creating a relatively wealthy nation. Although based in Lisbon, the capital moves to Toledo in Castile within two generations, the once Portuguese Trastamaras slowly becoming more connected to the core of their dominions. Castile plays an important part, being the most populous -- mixed crews in the Orient become more common place, the spice routes are held together better with more manpower, not to mention American gold to prevent a terrible trade deficit that later plagued the Portuguese. By uniting willingly, the 'Spain' (that is Portugal, Castile, and Aragon) becomes a very important and powerful force.

 

[strangeland]

Grrr. Half of this is nonsense!

1) "Spain is already wanked". Is nobody aware of the extreme bad luck which set in and brought about the decline of an empire that was even to its very end massively more functional and sustainable than everyone seems to think? Further, is anyone aware that if any country is "wanked OTL" (a term which I disagree with: a wank is supposed to be implausible, nationalistic, and silly and not a term of pride; OTL is by definition plausible), it's America, and we're still happy to wank it.

the conquests of Cortes and Pizarro would be considered implausible, nationalistic, silly, shameless Spain-wankery if someone posted them on this board. That is, had they not actually happened.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

From a military point of view, S-M war is a Spain-wank.

My problem with timelines and Spain is not that there are not Spain-wanks, but rather the disturbingly high amount of timelines that feature a separation of Castile and Aragon way after the time that made any sense, and Portugal annexing Galicia -for aesthetical reasons, I suppose. It is starting to become a running joke. IBC hit the nail in the head:

To answer the question, I think it's because people let their romantical instincts get the better of reason when it comes to lost kingdoms and independence movements (look at all the people who insist that Scotland is a victim of Evil English Genocide without having ever set foot here), because Spain still labours under a "black legend" in the conscience of many Anglophones, and because you have to carve it up to wank other countries.

 

[Iori]

It's simple really, when one thinks of the term 'wank' they automatically think phallus, and phallus sounds like Falange, ergo making a
Spain-wank means you support Fascism.


If you have to read this to see if I'm serious or not, I have only one thing to say; Really?

 

[Goldstein]

Grrr. Half of this is nonsense!

2) "Evil Castillians dominate everybody else forever, and Spain can't be ay more succesful because then the evil Castillians would be even more succesful!" I don't see anyone complaining that Britwanks aren't allowed because it would just be "England bukake". Which it of course would not be; and there's far more to Spain than mega-Castille.

Thank you very much for saving me minutes of my time, but I should insist in the point two because it hurts me particularily bad.

I am from Murcia. Which means I live in a place with a mostly Castillian origin and Spanish as the only language, yet universally considered non-Castillian as virtually all of our cultural input comes from Aragon, Valencia, La Mancha, Catalonia and the old Al-Andalus. That means that, excluding the language, the Castillian settlers were assimilated, not the other way around.

Actually, our transitional status mean that, unlike the Andalusians, we cannot see ourselves as a nation on its own, except if we considered ourselves as a frontier identity, like the Aran valley. But, you know, when a frontier identity encompasses the three percent of a country, that rings the alarm bells.

To me, it means the Murcian people share a nation. The Spanish nation, to be more exact. For understanding Spain as a multiethnical nation is our only way of understanding ourselves. Reduce Spain to teh ev0l Castilians playing dominatrix on the Poor Others, and my land (one of the Poor Ohers, actually) would be deprived of any point of reference, and served to romantic-mithology engineers that would fill us with hatred and lies that we don't really need.

I enjoy balkanizations (Oh, and please: if you are going to balkanize Spain, do it well. If the otherwise great contributors who have perpetrated the DoD-like Zombie Aragon witnessed its colossosal and magnificent level of absurdity, they would feel like waking up from a dream), much more than wanks, actually... but it would be nice if people don't reduce Spain so simply through the lens of the cheapest romantic nationalism. Thank you.

 

[Faralis]

I was thinking to make a TL that keeps the 1812 constitution, and with it the formation a federated kingdom, sort of "United States of Spanish-America", based in a what if posted here about Fernando VII fleeing to America ( and a thread I found years ago about a naval race between Spanish America and Brazil ), I even have the Prologue, but my lack of knowledge of South American 19 century politics is too big ...

Well its no wank at all,and the Capital even moves to America quite soon but its a better outcome both from Spain and for its former possessions too ...

EDIT: @Goldstein : yes, its funny how many assume that, with a Catalan independence comes a long the formers kingdoms of Aragon, Murcia and Valencia. In my opinion only a complete lack of knowledge of Spain ( or a uber nacionalistic view ) can do that ... ( even Mallorca its stressing it ... )

 

[Corbell Mark IV]

In a WWII ASB game a couple of months ago I played Spain, did some research.

Seemed to me that if Spain had participated in WWII you could get some reasonable improvement (Part of Marshall plan, eary EU, hold on to North Africa). My long term goal for the game was to get Spain on the Permanent Security Council.

Now, if your looking for wank-age, that might still be a "reasonable" place to start, then.

Did you look for TLs with Spainish invovlement in WWII? Either side?

While we're at it, does anyone think that Spain could have been on the Allies side and avoided conquest/occupation?

 

[Goldstein]

Did you look for TLs with Spainish invovlement in WWII? Either side?

While we're at it, does anyone think that Spain could have been on the Allies side and avoided conquest/occupation?

There's always the No Spanish Civil War TL, by Dr. Strangelove. Go and read it, you will thank me for that.

The funny thing is that, actually, the worst odds for a belligerant Spain are in the "republican victory" scenarios. Because in that case Hitler would have no reason to attack, and Spain would have no reason to join the Allies. But anyway, as Hitler was not quite a sane, reasonabe person, it could be doable if Hitler somehow decides he wants to commit further military suicide. But then again, it would lead to an occupation in that case.

OTOH, the even funnier thing is that, in different moments of the war, OTL nationalist Spain was literally one step from joining the war, first with the Axis (The Operation Felix and the infamous Hendaya reunion in 1941)... and then with the Allies (the American secret services manipulated the effects of the Laurel Incident concerning Japan, the Philippines and Spain in 1943, so Spain would fear an Allied invassion and would declare war on the Axis, cutting the wolfram supplies to Germany. Too bad the foreign affairs minister, the Count of Jordana, was a complete baddass...)

So yes, it is doable... with the nationalist side. With the republican side is possible as well, but avoiding an invasion is trickier.

EDIT: @Goldstein : yes, its funny how many assume that, with a Catalan independence comes a long the formers kingdoms of Aragon, Murcia and Valencia. In my opinion only a complete lack of knowledge of Spain ( or a uber nacionalistic view ) can do that ... ( even Mallorca its stressing it ... )

Hmmm, Majorca has a numerous pan-catalanist minority and a closer historical link to Catalonia, so it could be. Valencia, dubious but doable, depending on the antiquity of the POD (TTL people can find alternate ways of ignoring that Valencia is just not Catalonia). In the Murcian case, I would be inclined to say it's a POD during the early Reconquista or nothing.

 

[Faeelin]

the conquests of Cortes and Pizarro would be considered implausible, nationalistic, silly, shameless Spain-wankery if someone posted them on this board. That is, had they not actually happened.

A Renaissance military force defeating a bronze/stone age empire? I find it plausible.

 

[Faralis]

A Renaissance military force defeating a bronze/stone age empire? I find it plausible.

well in the Hernan Cortes case, he had 500 men 13 horses and a "small force" of thousand indians that hated so much the Aztec that would have put a monkey on the throne, so its plausible, but in Pizarro´s case were 200 vs a 80000 strong Inca army, yes, it was a completely obsolete army but the numbers alone make it more than a bit ASB, and the luck this guy had is incredible ...