Why is/was Sparta so admired?

JackLumber

LSCatilina said:
We shouldn't confuse two things, tough : the battle itself, and the epic narrative that was built over it.

The first can have a various importance (from contextual to little), and in this case not really much; while the second is more or less independent of strategical or historical reality as it becomes more of a cultural trope.
You can write off the first (altough I don't think it was this as much as pointing out they weren't ubermensches) while acknowledging the more or less autonomous historical range of the second (in this case, praising virtues of the soldier/citizen, which tended to be differently interpreted and praised depending the places and the era)

The importance of the second doesn't account for the importance of the first : effectivly, the Battle of Thermopylae failed as a delaying action and let various greek poleis even more divided they were (Lacademocians electing for fortyfing the isthmus of Corinth as they previously planned, and letting Beotians getting steam-rolled, while Athenians count their blessings in the form of ships.
In fact, Sparta wanted Athenians to pull the same thing that during Thermopylae, meaning a naval blockade around the region while landed troops would blockade the passage. Themistocles (and generally the popular faction) gave them the finger and opted for an agressive naval strategy, in no small part due to the defeat Thermopylae was.
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Im not arguing that it was a tactical or strategic success in the slightest.
 

James XI

Thespians, not Thebans, if I remember correctly.

Edit: checked, both true. 700 Thespians, 400 Thebans, though it was the actors who stayed until the final act.

I disagree with the notion that it was pointless, btw. A lot going on politically, and the post-Pylos Spartan reaction paints them as more complex than I think we often imagine. Leonidas would appear to have felt a political statement was necessary...remember that many Spartans wanted to draw the line at Corinth, and many other Greek states had gone over to the Persians or were wavering. Given what happened afterwards, I'd give it the benefit of the doubt.
 
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Tripledot

Tripledot

Neoteros said:
How so? I mean, even now it looks like the kind of movie MRAs would worship, the author's original intention notwithstanding.
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Nah, what you're looking for is Taxi Driver. The film remains relevant fourty years after its release, although its message is quite often misconstrued by angsty young men like John Hinckley, Jr.
 

King Henry

hwyl said:
Well, in all fairness, I think Athens has been overwhelmingly favoured since the beginning of the humanist revival: the amazingly high level of the arts, the great Athenian philosophers and then increasingly also the early forms of democracy have been much admired and Sparta has been seen as a particularly flawed society in these respects.
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Personally, I've always held the opinion that the Persians are really due their turn to be uncritically adulated as the inventors of all the good bits of civilization.
 

dandan_noodles

Spartan laws are in many ways underrated, in that their vices are widely known, but not their main selling point; as far as I know, Sparta never had a civil war within its citizen class, which is more than can be said for most other Greek cities. Furthermore, it should be remembered that slaves formed a key strata of most Greek cities' social orders, and were more than happy to abandon the city that enslaved them for its enemies; Sparta was not unique in having its helot class. What I find interesting is that while some citizens always remained to guard against a helot uprising, the Spartans could usually make their citizen soldier class stretch farther by emphasizing their expertise as commanders and drillmasters; whole armies were built with just thirty Spartiates serving as officers, with the rank and file filled out with allies, mercenaries, and freed helots. Spartans were unique among Greek armies in training in formation drill and being able to maneuver; while their allies often resented it, being subject to military discipline absolutely made them more effective fighters. Sparta was also not the cultural desert people make it out to be; the prominence of Athens in the historiography is mostly due to a trick in sources; proportionately more Athenian sources survive than those of other Greek cities.
 

Fernando III

Spartan society was pretty austere and disciplined.Which were virtous traits at the time.Also they were way more merciful than Athens or Thebes as was shown with how they acted in the Peloponisian wars in which Athens killed and enslaved entire populations while Sparta just putted a pro-Spartan oligarchy in those lands.
 

Japhy

Banned
Western Civilization is built on the Graves of one of their Kings and his guard. Even then mind you they were viewed as a reactionary state but the philosophers and historians of Athens were able to admit that their flourishing was due to the Spartans willingness to die and cement the Alliance of Anti-Persian cities. And they, just as we do two millenia later can only look at them and wonder if we have what it takes to do that.
 
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