Why is/was Sparta so admired?

Funny, I read a bit about Sparta just yesterday on TV Tropes: That guy said too that the positive things said about Sparta either came from Athenian oligarchists (Plato, Xenophon) or Romans (who considered the Spartans similar-minded) long after Sparta lost independence.

Then again, Sparta wasn't conquered for a long time...
 
I don't want to derail the thread but Fight Club is very dated now. It's got a really early 2000s view of masculinity to it that doesn't really gel with the '10s. That movie is very much a product of its time and will fade from memory for most guys who didn't grow up then.

I have to disagree. That view of masculinity is timeless, even if there's many that don't want to admit that.
 
Funny, I read a bit about Sparta just yesterday on TV Tropes: That guy said too that the positive things said about Sparta either came from Athenian oligarchists (Plato, Xenophon) or Romans (who considered the Spartans similar-minded) long after Sparta lost independence.

Then again, Sparta wasn't conquered for a long time...

Was it Dan Carlin whi described Sparta as a sort of 'Colonial Williamsburg/Theme Park' version of Oligarchic Greece? Basically that the version we get from history is a caricature of the reality.
 
Then again, Sparta wasn't conquered for a long time...
Sparta was fairly uninteresting strategically, tough.
It didn't have much of a favourable setting like Athens or Thebes, and the city mostly get importance trough an uninterrupted politic of brutal hegemonism. Then Persian subsides really helped the city holding their ground and winning over the war of attrition the Peloponesian War was.

Hell, the main thing that prevented Sparta to be steam-rolled during the Corinthian War, was that Persians litterally decided that Sparte should won to preserve their interests.

This dependence on Persian support really broke off most of the influence the Dorian model had in Hellade, hence why Aristote believed it to be corrupt, but is conveniently forgotten by most of fanboys in need of a virile and empowered male model.

Funnily enough, this search of a model barely fits the reality of a Spartan society that was less militarized and garrison-like that it's often made to genuinly be : Roman "tourism" in Greece generally included visits to Sparta with reconstitution of "totally authentic, genuine and not at all made on the spot or widely re-interpreted" Spartan traditions such as flogging in temples.
I've an hard time not pointing and laughing at various fanboys telling me Sparta is the next best thing after sliced bread, because they're so manly/warlike/pure*/freedom-loving, when we're talking of a pretty much corrupt (geopolitically) city which was considered medizeing for the sake of its hegemony in Greece, and that became the equivalent of an ancient tourist-trap in order to crook Romans out of their money.

*Generally, this one comes from too much viewing of 300 or an unsavoury take on ethnicised history or worldview.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Short story: Sparta was and continues to be romanticised. This is inevitable: we always romanticise (parts of) the past to some degree. But consider that even the ancient aristocrats and oligarchs who admired Sparta mostly admired the idea of Sparta. They looked back at the story of Leonidas and the Three Hundred, they looked at the legend of undefeated Sparta-- at its dedication, its courage-- and they romaticised that. Even a total Sparta fanboy like Kimon never actually wanted to turn Athens into a second Sparta, where all children are basically raised by the state to become soldiers etc.

What these admirers want, what they like so much, is that Sparta was perceived as somehow being "pure". They excluded non-Spartans from civic fuctions at all costs; they remained dedicated completely to their ideal of what sparta should be. In theory, this can be admired by anyone who tends to a certain conservatism. Especially since many people are often worried about the decline of their own country/polis/society. A man like Kimon looks at Athens, sees the threat of "mob rule" in the democratic reforms, and holds up Sparta as an example of true virtue. But the picture he paints isn't the real thing.

The truth, as others have noted, is the exact desire for "purity", and the rigid unwillingness to change or compromise, is what caused the ultimate end of Sparta. Anyone who looks critically at it will soon see that Sparta carried the seeds of its own decline. The only people who still uncritically admire Sparta either hold up the romanticised caricature painted by earlier admirers... or they're the kind of people who actually think the true Spartan model (with is highly exclusive citizenship on an ethnic basis, its rigid class distinctions, its eugenics, its forced military education, its vast serf underclass etc.) is a good idea.

(Needless to say, I blame no one for romaticising something. That's only natural. But that second group of people always makes me a bit uncomfortable...)
 
This opens the question: Where do we get correct information from, if everyone is biased?
Every litterary sources comes from a context, but it doesn't mean that every source is soiled with bias.
Some authors or sources are known to be more reliable than others (going straight to Godwin : who are you going to believe to write the history of WW2, Goebbels or Roosvelt?), some sources can be checked in others while some make really implausible claims, etc.

Outright bias does exist, but it's less blunt and more subtile than this, eventually.

Which is why historical analysis is a thing, based on a scientific methodology, which too many people (including on this board) have a sad tendency to dismiss as "History is written by winners" or "it's all about personal interpretation"
 
May be I am inattentive, but there was one aspect in Sparta, which was admired by some (contemporaries and future generations); and this aspect hasn't been mentioned in this thread.
I mean that was one of the first egalitarian sociological experiments in the history of the human kind.
And that attracted some attention.

Let's look at Greece: there were rich polices (like Athene) which might be able to sustain decent living level for their poor citizens.
But there were polices where the hungry truly poor citizens looked at some filthy rich citizens. And they felt that it was not right, it was unfair.
Of course that is more about 'Classical' Sparta only, but there the great pains were taken to make all the citizens equal, which left less place for envy (and social disturbances among citizens).

I guess the true equality in property was never achieved, it was more an idea, but at some periods they came close.

Of course there were exploited helots, but that was in line with the Greek moral of the time.
 
I mean that was one of the first egalitarian sociological experiments in the history of the human kind.

No, it was one of the most oligarchic states in world history. First came the elite (the aristocracy), then the citizens, then the Perioeci and then the Helots. Athenian citizen could reach every office of their city, and did so in practice due to sortition. Sparta was a hierarchic society where election were done by shouting, where citizen's assembly had no right of iniative and where the politics were made by a little circle of noble families in the Gerousia.
 
Aside from militarism, there actually are other qualities to be admired;

*they were way ahead of the curve on gender equality. If you're going to be a woman in the Classical western world (something that affects roughly half the population according to my research) it would probably be your top option. Assuming, of course, that you're a citizen.

*Unlike Athens et al, they remained pretty stable and self-determinist for centuries. The Golden Age of Athens lasted roughly 1-2 generations. Sparta's run lasted waaaaay longer, like to a double digit factor.

* as can be said for, say, Republican Rome, within the strictures of their class divide, they were remarkably egalitarian. It's a huge caveat, obviously, but in comparison with it's contemporaries, it still stands remarkable. Athens had many more monarchs, tyrants, oligarchs in the true sense, etc. during Sparta's run of titular dual monarchies but really a restricted pseudo-collective.

* If you're a nationalist...I am very much not...they are an extreme example of state-before-individual. Probably the most extreme. So if you're constructing a nationalistic society, they will almost invariably serve as a model.

*If you are a non-materialist...I very much am...they are an extreme example of society wherein personal possessions and wealth had little to do with your status and/or power. As with anything else, this blade cuts both ways and there are troubling concurrents, but the degree to which material selfishness was a non-factor is IMO quite admirable.

I could cite more, but the real reason Sparta is so admired is IMO Athens and what I call the Intro-Psych Apotheoisis. Ever taken 1st year psych, or had a friend or w/e who has? These are people walking around avidly aware of the shingles falling from their eyes, of the possession of a New Truth that helps explain all previously confusing Life Problems. They are not necessarily giddy with it, for some it's an extremely depressing experience, but they are almost all feeling their own state of Revelation. Sparta is like that re: Athens. If, like most people, you only study the basics of Classical history, you will think Athens is the bees knees in Old Greece. But once you scratch the surface and get into the real stuff, you begin to understand that Athens' supremacy was extremely ephemeral and not terribly supreme; it lost the only war (with Sparta) it fought at it's zenith, and Sparta reigned the unquestioned leader of Greece for centuries before that, and really only began to slip a Leuctra.

More, you will around the same time begin to understand that Serious Historians have understood this for a long time, that Sparta....not Athens...has served as the model for many more (often terrifying) attempts at utopian construction than Athens ever did, and that in fact Athens often served as a cautionary tale for the maelstrom of instability that comes with democracy. They say a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, and in a way Discovering Sparta can be that.

Which is not to discount the reality of it's greatness, in a practical sense. It truly was one of the marvels of the ancient world, and it's citizens were almost certainly sincerely altruistic in terms of prioritizing a greater good over themselves. And to be fair, most of the criticisms of it's structure are anachronistic; whether it was 'truly' egalitarian or very very limited egalitarian from a modern POV, compared with the vast majority of it's contemporaries it certainly was, and the other exceptions tended to rise/fall very quickly. In the Greek world they were viewed as an odd but successful experiment in something like socialism, or the Napoleonic Tri-colour egalite, fraternity but somewhat less liberte. So, admirable in a way.

It's just a terrifying model, but an extremely tantalizing one for political architects of a nationalistic/militaristic persuasion.
 
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They were military badasses, terrible at literally everything else, but badasses nonetheless.

Yes, so much that even after the romans conquered sparta, they continued using the Spartans as auxiliari

So much that the last battle fought by the spartan hoplites was the battle of adrianople, were they succesfully repelled a gothic charge
 

King Thomas

Banned
-Thermopylae-how many of us could willingly fight to the death in battle in that way?
-Good treatment of women
-A mighty army.
 
It's the idea of the battle more so than what it accomplished and I wouldn't just right off three days, in some circumstances three days preparation is the difference between victory and defeat.
Except it not only led to no strategical gain whatsoever (I mean litterally, absolutly none), and that the narrative more or less written off that it was only a token force from Sparta (that couldn't care less about central Hellade's cities and tought about fortifying the isthmus of Corinth) as well non-Spartan participation.

I agree that the idea of the battle, echoing the oligarchic and aristocratic virtues that were celebrated as well as Marathon certainly played along the lines described above, tough.
 
Except it not only led to no strategical gain whatsoever (I mean litterally, absolutly none), and that the narrative more or less written off that it was only a token force from Sparta (that couldn't care less about central Hellade's cities and tought about fortifying the isthmus of Corinth) as well non-Spartan participation.

I agree that the idea of the battle, echoing the oligarchic and aristocratic virtues that were celebrated as well as Marathon certainly played along the lines described above, tough.
I wasn't saying the three days were important here just that he couldnt right off the battle based soley on the amount of time the greeks held out.
 
I wasn't saying the three days were important here just that he couldnt right off the battle based soley on the amount of time the greeks held out.
We shouldn't confuse two things, tough : the battle itself, and the epic narrative that was built over it.

The first can have a various importance (from contextual to little), and in this case not really much; while the second is more or less independent of strategical or historical reality as it becomes more of a cultural trope.
You can write off the first (altough I don't think it was this as much as pointing out they weren't ubermensches) while acknowledging the more or less autonomous historical range of the second (in this case, praising virtues of the soldier/citizen, which tended to be differently interpreted and praised depending the places and the era)

The importance of the second doesn't account for the importance of the first : effectivly, the Battle of Thermopylae failed as a delaying action and let various greek poleis even more divided they were (Lacademocians electing for fortyfing the isthmus of Corinth as they previously planned, and letting Beotians getting steam-rolled, while Athenians count their blessings in the form of ships.
In fact, Sparta wanted Athenians to pull the same thing that during Thermopylae, meaning a naval blockade around the region while landed troops would blockade the passage. Themistocles (and generally the popular faction) gave them the finger and opted for an agressive naval strategy, in no small part due to the defeat Thermopylae was.
 
It's the idea of the battle more so than what it accomplished and I wouldn't just right off three days, in some circumstances three days preparation is the difference between victory and defeat.
There were more Thebans than Spartans at the last stand.
 
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