Why is the 1918 .30 BAR considered a poor rifle?

[Carl Schwamberger]

Ouch! 7 frigging machine guns (up to 9) ? That is insane! There must have been a lot of room wasted to carry enough ammo for that many machine guns. A 37mm was small at that late date.

Actually if you look up the specs, that 37mm gun outperformed about any tank gun anyone else had in 1939. The Brit 2lbr was equal or better. The French had a 47mm gun on the drawing board that would have been better. There were larger caliber guns on some tanks, but those were primarily HE shooters. & the US gun had a canister round .

Beyond that the engine, drivetrain, suspension, electrical, fuel system, ect.. ect... were the result of two decades of experiments and tests. The reliability of the M3 & M4 were established by the M2 development.

 

[Johnrankins]

Actually if you look up the specs, that 37mm gun outperformed about any tank gun anyone else had in 1939. The Brit 2lbr was equal or better. The French had a 47mm gun on the drawing board that would have been better. There were larger caliber guns on some tanks, but those were primarily HE shooters. & the US gun had a canister round .

Beyond that the engine, drivetrain, suspension, electrical, furl system, ect.. ect... were the result of two decades of experiments and tests. The reliability of the M3 & M4 were established by the M2 development.

I would say the M2 Medium was a good foundation to build a future tank on but was not one you would want to put on the field. It obviously had potential that was realized in the future.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Richard V said:
Easy, issue 2-3 BARs per squad. By late WWII the Army was issuing 2 BARs to most squads to make up for the lack of firepower. By this point the Germans were issuing MP-44s and some squads had 2 MG42. Of course 2 BARs are more expensive than 2 MG42s, but America could afford it. In the Pacific the Marines were issuing 3 BAR per squad by war’s end, and the company M1919 went from 3 to 6. This was horribly expensive but the firepower was stupendous.

The Marines went through a series of TO/TE changes. Their doctrine seems to have been driven bottom up rather than top down as in the US Army. Experiments in the 4th Marines in 1930s China headrests with a ratio of as few as three rifle per BAR in the rifle company. One TO/TE in 1942 had sixteen BAR in the rifle company. Concentrated in four eight man squads. The company commander could distribute the BAR as he saw fit. The MG in that era were usually concentrated in a battalion MG company. At the end of 1942 a common new TO/TE had eighteen BAR in the rifle company, two per squad. In 1944 the conversion to the three per squad began, and the MG were increased and pushed down to the rifle companies. Experienced regimental commanders pushed most of the MG to company level, and front loaded the rifle companies with the replacements during the preiavasion workups. Instead of keeping all the replacements separate they integrated them with the rifle companies and used them to add specialist assault teams. It varied by company, but it was not unusual for a company commander to have 240+ men, 27 BAR, 8 MMG or HMG, some flame throwers, bazooka teams, demolition teams, and 60mm mortars when they crossed the beach.

 

[Captain Homicide]

Doh. What happened?

I spoke to him about it on SpaceBattles (his username on that site is wiking85 if anyone wants to know) and he said he didn’t want to make a big deal about the issue so he simply asked to have his account deleted but gave me permission to discuss it.

Wiking said his reason for leaving was because of the worsening site culture and the fact that now every time he posted in a thread he was accused of being a Wehraboo/Nazi and reported numerous times to the point where the moderators were being pressured to do something or risk looking bad.

He said he knew a ban was most likely coming and didn’t want to participate in a forum where he had to worry about posting things that didn’t raise an eyebrow on the site in the past so he decided to cut his losses.

 

[tomo pauk]

Thank you.

 

[Johnrankins]

Right! It was what was available at the time, and it worked very effectively as designed. The BAR was NOT a poor (automatic) rifle as implied by the originator of this post. I also recall multiple personal accounts, praising M1918 BAR reliability under challenging Korean War conditions. In fact, it was stated that the BAR was even more reliable than the M1 Garand in extremely challenging conditions.

I am sure it was reliable but there were other reliable LMGs out there that were considerably better. The FN Model D was basically a BAR with a quick change barrel and a pistol grip. I doubt either could have effected its reliability but a quick change barrel allowed longer sustained fire which made it better.

 

[MickCz]

I spoke to him about it on SpaceBattles (his username on that site is wiking85 if anyone wants to know) and he said he didn’t want to make a big deal about the issue so he simply asked to have his account deleted but gave me permission to discuss it.

Wiking said his reason for leaving was because of the worsening site culture and the fact that now every time he posted in a thread he was accused of being a Wehraboo/Nazi and reported numerous times to the point where the moderators were being pressured to do something or risk looking bad.

He said he knew a ban was most likely coming and didn’t want to participate in a forum where he had to worry about posting things that didn’t raise an eyebrow on the site in the past so he decided to cut his losses.

This is a great pity.

 

[Blue cat]

This is a great pity.

Yes I agree.

 

[Reggieperrin]

This is a great pity.

Yes I agree.

Seriously, why? He wasn’t even a wehraboo, he was a caricature of a wehraboo. Virtually every thread he participated in went the same way. He was one-half of my ignore list and still dragged the site down.

POD: A tree falls in a forest instead of a different tree OTL, no-one has seen or heard either tree fall, both are consumed by beetles. Or something equally trivial.
Wiking: This almost certainly means Moscow falls by the end of Nov 41. Even if western support allows the soviets to hold in the winter, the increased strength now available for Case Blue leads to the capture of the Caucasus and INEVITABLE GERMAN VICTORY.
Other posters: Uh, what?
Forty pages of bickering, sanity exits stage left.

 

[McPherson]

A sounding board is a great amplifier for tuning one's own arguments. Even if the sounding board is cracked. There is a human metaphor to use in AH discussions, if one is subtle.

Note to self, how does that apply to the topic?

If the Americans had paid attention to foreign experience with THEIR automatic rifle, they would have noticed Swedish, FRENCH, Belgian and Polish developments and figured out that it, the BAR, might be the basis for a squad automatic weapon and junked the silly notion of walking fire which had outlived its infantry tactics sell date.

Just saying that someone pointing out; "Hey, the Swedes have turned the BAR into a machine gun and now they can fight the Russians in the cold without it jamming." in an AH discussion of "what if", is a voice that should not be or have been hounded out.

Instead, reasoned refutation should have been the recourse.

 

[Blue cat]

Seriously, why? He wasn’t even a wehraboo, he was a caricature of a wehraboo. Virtually every thread he participated in went the same way. He was one-half of my ignore list and still dragged the site down.

POD: A tree falls in a forest instead of a different tree OTL, no-one has seen or heard either tree fall, both are consumed by beetles. Or something equally trivial.
Wiking: This almost certainly means Moscow falls by the end of Nov 41. Even if western support allows the soviets to hold in the winter, the increased strength now available for Case Blue leads to the capture of the Caucasus and INEVITABLE GERMAN VICTORY.
Other posters: Uh, what?
Forty pages of bickering, sanity exits stage left.

I will agree to disagree with you and move on.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Seriously, why? He wasn’t even a wehraboo, he was a caricature of a wehraboo. Virtually every thread he participated in went the same way. He was one-half of my ignore list and still dragged the site down.

POD: A tree falls in a forest instead of a different tree OTL, no-one has seen or heard either tree fall, both are consumed by beetles. Or something equally trivial.
Wiking: This almost certainly means Moscow falls by the end of Nov 41. Even if western support allows the soviets to hold in the winter, the increased strength now available for Case Blue leads to the capture of the Caucasus and INEVITABLE GERMAN VICTORY.
Other posters: Uh, what?
Forty pages of bickering, sanity exits stage left.

"Just because I helped brigade him off the site, and am currently grave dancing does not make me a toxic individual"

It does, and it's also very cringey.

 

[Catsmate]

I am not disputing the fact that it was a poor light machine gun , it is just I don't know enough about small arms to distinguish between a good and bad one. What are the strengths and weaknesses of the 1918 BAR?

It's a poor service rifle, far too heavy.
It's a poor LSW/LMG; light barrel, no bipod, small and underside magazine
It's a poor assault rifle, over-powered for handheld automatic fire.
It really has no niche.

 

[yulzari]

In it's defence, in Home Guard units with a 0,300" ammunition base, it was the section fire power base even when used as an automatic rifle. With the riflemen using Enfield Pattern 1917 bolt action rifles. Automatic fire was officially discouraged though.

 

[MickCz]

Seriously, why? He wasn’t even a wehraboo, he was a caricature of a wehraboo. Virtually every thread he participated in went the same way. He was one-half of my ignore list and still dragged the site down.

POD: A tree falls in a forest instead of a different tree OTL, no-one has seen or heard either tree fall, both are consumed by beetles. Or something equally trivial.
Wiking: This almost certainly means Moscow falls by the end of Nov 41. Even if western support allows the soviets to hold in the winter, the increased strength now available for Case Blue leads to the capture of the Caucasus and INEVITABLE GERMAN VICTORY.
Other posters: Uh, what?
Forty pages of bickering, sanity exits stage left.

Haha! Very good!
However in answer to your question, even working out that sanity had left was entertaining

 

[Reggieperrin]

Haha! Very good!
However in answer to your question, even working out that sanity had left was entertaining

To be fair he did generate a lot of discussion, which is helpful for sites like this when facegramsnap is slurping up ever more of the time people spend on the internet. And a lot of useful information did get shared by others trying to refute him. But it got tiresome seeing thread after thread derail into pages of irate responses to “Ignored User”.

It's a poor service rifle, far too heavy.
It's a poor LSW/LMG; light barrel, no bipod, small and underside magazine
It's a poor assault rifle, over-powered for handheld automatic fire.
It really has no niche.

It still perfectly fits the niche it was designed for - a Better Chauchat(TM). But by the 1920s a Better Chauchat (TM) wasn’t what anyone needed, although the US were still obsessed with the concept.
Indeed they are still fond of the idea a hundred years after the French gave up on it and are now issuing the M27 Better Chauchat(TM) to the USMC.

 

[McPherson]

Obviously one (^^^) does not understand recent American combat experience.

As useful as the M249 was, it did have problems. A 2006 report conducted by the CNA Corporation found that among U.S. Army combat veterans, the M249 scored below average in third place (after the M16 rifle and M4 carbine, but generally ahead of the M9 pistol) in handling, accuracy, maintainability and corrosion resistance. Nearly 30 percent of troops issued the M249 reported experiencing a stoppage in contact with the enemy, and 35 percent expressed a lack of confidence in weapon reliability. Although a U.S. Army study, the weapons involved in the study were identical to those issued at the time by the U.S. Marines.

The most glaring problem with the M249: it was never a good institutional fit for the Marine Corps. Although the weapon could hose down an enemy position with fire it wasn’t particularly useful for accurately engaging individual targets. The increase in ammo consumption meant an increase in carried ammunition weight. Ammunition consumption went up, the weight of carried ammunition went up, and accuracy went down—not an ideal situation for infantry.

IOW... walking fire had nothing to do with it. The USMC wanted a 21st century BREN not a 21st century Chautchat or the M249.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Obviously one (^^^) does not understand recent American combat experience.


IOW... walking fire had nothing to do with it. The USMC wanted a 21st century BREN not a 21st century Chautchat or the M249.

It's also worth noting that the Marines only adopted squad level belt-feds in the early 90s, having relied on full auto M14s and M16s with bipods for the entire Cold War. Them using squad level belt feds as standard was a momentary blip in history which seems to now be over.

So there actually isn't anything remotely radical about America's primary light infantry force further optimizing itself for that role. At least, nothing radical compared to completely axing their tanks, abandoning the concept of contested beach landings, and giving every marine an LMG...