Why is Murcia not considered part of Andalusia?

How is it any more historically different than Granada was from Jaen? ...
I would be very keen to hear from anyone that knows Spain well how similar and different from each other the five Southern kingdoms were.

Did you at least tried to read the previous posts?

1)Murcia, even during visigothic period was a distinct and coherent region that was kept on one part up the christian reconquest.

2)Murcia have his trade roads directed mainly towards north and eastern sea, at the contrary of Andalucia.

3)Not part of Guadalquivir basin, nor have its political center within

4)Different dialect is spoken

5)Organised mainly by Aragon, instead of Andalucia organised by Castille

All these factors contributed to make today's Murcia a distinct region from Andalucia.

And, I'm maybe immodest, but I think knowing one thing or two about Spain during Middle-Ages if it helps you.
 
Did you at least tried to read the previous posts?

I meant my question with the emphasis on "historically" rather than "geographically" if that makes it seem less obnoxious. I'm being persuaded on the geographic point.

1)Murcia, even during visigothic period was a distinct and coherent region that was kept on one part up the christian reconquest.

I don't quite understand the end of this sentence. Was the distinctiveness mainly the trade links aspect? The Treaty of Tudmir doesn't seem like it would have been all that impactful centuries later, or am I wrong?

2)Murcia have his trade roads directed mainly towards north and eastern sea, at the contrary of Andalucia.

Judging from a map, I would guess Granada would have trade links with Murcia, was this not the case?

3)Not part of Guadalquivir basin, nor have its political center within.

I think you've persuaded me on this. It really does surprise me that Granada wasn't more of a sea-based trading place though.

4)Different dialect is spoken

Wasn't the Catalan speaking part carved off it anyway?

5)Organised mainly by Aragon, instead of Andalucia organised by Castille

How long was this organisation period, before it was handed back to Castille?

And, I'm maybe immodest, but I think knowing one thing or two about Spain during Middle-Ages if it helps you.

And your expertise is very much appreciated. I apologise if I came across as rude, I just like to test arguments fully before accepting them. It's not meant as a sign of disrespect.

Does your knowledge extend to more cultural aspects? I know Andalusia is famous for having food and dancing that's distinctive to the place. Would you say Murcia is similar to this, or to Castille, or something that's very unique between the two?

Thanks very much.
 
I don't quite understand the end of this sentence. Was the distinctiveness mainly the trade links aspect? The Treaty of Tudmir doesn't seem like it would have been all that impactful centuries later, or am I wrong?
As an exemple of lasting impact, you have the "Kura al-Tudmir" to name the region.
But the treaty in itself is not founding of Murcia, it's just showing that Murcia was already at this time a coherent region, distinctive from its neighboors.


Judging from a map, I would guess Granada would have trade links with Murcia, was this not the case?
They were. But in a blank map, you had trouble to see mountains, the relative lack of passes and a dry and relative useless countryside outside coast and Segura.

You had ties with Andalusia, yes. But contrary to Andalusia, that was turned towards North-West and South, Murcia was turned to East and North-East (and that forced them to try to own Balearic islands).

I think you've persuaded me on this. It really does surprise me that Granada wasn't more of a sea-based trading place though.
Mountains.
Furthermore...Grenada (at last Nasirid one) was entierly surrounded by too powerful neighbours that kid of excelled into seafaring : Aragon, Morocco by exemple.

You actually HAD tentatives of having a more important role in seafaring, by taking Malaga by exemple. But it was essentially for an Maghrebia/Andalusian traffic, not really the region where Murcia's interest COULD have been located.

Admittedly the Kura al Bayyana could have formed a Murcia-like region too, focused on the Almanzor river. That said, it was a region that was historically really tied to other parts of Andalusia, with harbours mainly disposed towards south and with more facilities for roads (coastal ones mainly).

Wasn't the Catalan speaking part c
arved off it anyway?
I don't uderstand well "carve off". Do you mean Catalan influenced Murcian?
Well, apparently you have occitano-romance influences on pronounciation( coming both from Catalan and from Occitan settlers).

But it's mainly a castillan dialect, being more close apparently from standard castillan than andalusian.

How long was this organisation period, before it was handed back to Castille?
I don't remember that well the period, 50 years at best from memory. But Aragonese usually chased Muslims from the cities once conquered, when Castillans used to keep them more or less in their cities as long they respected the vassalages treaties.

As it wasn't the case for Murcia, I think that (at the contrary of Jaen by exemple) they were expelled (when not killed for rebellion), making the Murcian defenitly cut from Andalusian dialects.
Does your knowledge extend to more cultural aspects? I know Andalusia is famous for having food and dancing that's distinctive to the place. Would you say Murcia is similar to this, or to Castille, or something that's very unique between the two?
The problem is that these precise cultural traits are more or less the same in all the Mediterranean lands, whatever Christian, Jewish or Muslim...
I don't think you would find something really unic regarding this.
 
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