Why Germany Won- Timeline of the Third Reich 1933-2010

Valamyr said:
Fatherland was quite more realistic for a Nazi victory scenario. It never suggested Germany pulling off a successful Sealion; merely a much more successful naval blockade of England with submarines, which was the only thing that managed to worry Churchill in OTL. Coupled with victory in the Caucasus and no american presence in Europe, this built a reasonable German victory scenario.

The numbers he gave for the continued war in the east were rather surreal though; nobody can stand a war of that intensity for 20 years on end. But it added to the atmosphere. I like how he pictured his neo-pagan, gothic Germania also.


Well as the OTL war showed, the German subs ruled for a while but then got slaughtered thanks to a lot of different reasons all of which Turtledove decides to ignore. But that's not the biggest problem, he then simply writes off the Allies by declaring D-Day failed & then the Allies surrendered like a bunch of frightened children. Crap :p :D
 

Sargon

Donor
Monthly Donor
I have to say I think Turtledove has very little understanding or knowledge of naval tactics.

I remember reading his 'World War' series, and noticing that just about all the action was either land based, or in the air above land. Granted, the lizards were said to not know much about oceans since they hadn't encountered any before, and had little understanding of shipping, so that was why they did not venture out to sea. However, this missed a massive opportunity for the humans to exploit this weakness, and he could have written far more about naval bombardments, amphibious landings, carrier strikes etc...in fact they are barely mentioned at all.

Then I read more of his books, and the lack of naval action finally brought me to the realisation that apart from writing dodgy AH, he really has no idea about naval stuff at all.... which is more of a reason why he leaves it out of his books. I then saw the plot device of World War for what it was, just covering his lack of knowledge in one specific area, and giving him an excuse not to write about it. I was sorely disappointed by it, and I feel that if World War had been real, then the humans would surely have developed the use of their navies to take advantage of the lizards lack of understanding of them...very long range heavy bombers launched from carriers etc, or extremely long range guns on ships, heavy missile launchers from ships and subs etc.

Just a cop out I feel. Not surprised about his ignoring the fight against submarines, after all he is pretty ignorant of the stuff involved.

However, I did like his 'Agent of Byzantium', so he's not a total disaster, but even that had flaws.

Sorry, that's my rant over.

Sargon
 
Here is the rough draft for Part 2:

Nazi Empire

1971 to 1985 – Heinrich Himmler is now ruler of the world, along with the rest of Germany. In 1971, Himmler sets up a colonial office in North America which is used to exploit the cattle herds of the Great Planes, the oil in Alaska and the tobacco fields of the American South. The Germanic Colonial Ministry now controls not just Eastern Europe, Africa, or India but also North America and parts of South America. After all of the purges in the United States and Canada, the population drops to 112 million in the USA and just over 10 million in Canada. The black population drops to three percent of its original size. The German government starts to rebuild Mexico right after the war. The Mexican population drops to a staggering 35 million people by 1972. A puppet government is set up in Chilpancingo, Guerrero and asks for German help rebuilding its economy and cities. Germany agrees and sends huge amounts of monetary aid. The Mexican peso is now worth nothing, so Germany sends them Reichmarks to help bolster up the economy. In South America, Brazil and Chili become occupied. The rest of the continent joins the GAP, the Germanic Alliance for Peace.

In 1973, a Jewish uprising occurs in Moscow. Whats left of the secret Jewish population in Europe strikes in Moscow, killing thousands of new German colonists. A four week battle occurs between Jewish partisans and the SS Waffen. Most of the Jews die in the struggle, while the rest are killed in work camps in Siberia. The incident becomes will known across the world and much and many people furiously accept it. The United States public protests the genocide and pays dearly for it. Himmler bombs Chicago, killing thousands. Over 750,000 more people are killed by German occupation forces for treason. The American puppet government in Omaha, Nebraska, headed by Strom Thurmond, calls for peace across the occupied nation and demands an end to the protests. Within just days, the populace of the United States returns to normal. New military bases are set up in Los Angeles, Chicago, New York and Omaha to act as a deterrent against future rebellions.

In 1975, British partisans bomb the BUF headquarters in London, killing many high up personal in the British government. This causes riots across Britain. People loot and pillage and refuse to purchase German made goods. A military base is taken over by English citizens after being bombed numerous times. An entire Panzer brigade is captured and used to attack other German bases. London is finally taken over by the English rebels and demands for Germany to go home. Germany refuses the ultimatum and lands troops in Dover. Week long battles are fought in southern England between the German Army and the rebels. By the end of December of 1975, London is retaken. Almost half a million German troops are then sent to occupy the nation once more. Much of London is destroyed for second time and must be rebuilt once again. A new British Union of Fascists party is formed and is directly influenced by the Greater German Reich.

The last half of the 1970s end somewhat peacefully. Heinrich Himmler declares that he will uphold Nazi Doctrine and party policy will remain the same as it was in Adolf Hitler's day. He decrees that France shall remain occupied and that it shall not be admitted into the Greater German Reich (GGR) . In 1978, India is admitted into the GGR as a separate nation. Indian leaders call this a step in the right direction and that they are thankful for the rights given to them as a member of the GGR. Himmler says that India is more valuable as a member of the Reich then as a colony of the Germanic Empire. However, the Colonial Ministry continues to control their economic life. In Japan, Australia and New Zealand become protectorates in 1979, ending their 8 year occupation. A new ANZAC is created to defend both nations. Most of the Japanese occupations go home and let the Aussies defend themselves. However, the Head of State of both Australia and New Zealand is Japanese. Back in Europe, Finland is awarded the former Russian provinces of Karelia and Murmansk by the GGR. Himmler decrees that these lands are of Finnish descent and should be united with the National Socialist Republic of Finland.

In 1980, Czech protesters wave the Czechoslovakian flag in Prague. They decree that they want protectorate status in the GGR. Himmler says no and crushes the rallies in the city. Hundreds are executed for treason and thousands more are sent to work camps. In Africa, the Germanic territories of OTL Botswana and Namibia are annexed by the Union of South Africa. Germany believes that these lands are better suited for its ally. The population of Botswana and Namibia only equal a total of 975,000 people.

In 1983, Lunar Base One is created on the Moon's surface. 30 astronauts work and live on the moon. Himmler declares it a glorious time for the Germanic Empire and that someday the entire solar system will be colonized and annexed by the Reich. In Britain, the BUF rule is stronger then ever. The people over time come to except fascist rule and do not want to repeat another atrocity. Brazil and Chili become member of the GAP in 1984, ending their 13 year occupation. The Zeiss Home Computer becomes very popular in Germany and Italy. By 1985, almost 35 percent of all families in Germany have one. The 20 megabyte hard drive is the largest ever created for the public. Germany outlaws gay marriage and people thought to be homosexual are to be sent to prison. Storm Thurmond in the United States declares this a step in the right direction for all human beings. He says he will work hand and hand with the Germanic Empire and that the United States has become a better nation under Nazi rule.


In Germany, Heinrich Himmler dies in 1985. There are rumors that he really died in 1983 and that the SS have been ruling the country for 2 years, however many of these rumors are discredited. Kurt Haldweim is named Fuhrer of Germany and begins his lifelong rule.

Appendix D- Germany

The Germanic Empire is the name given to Germany in this TL. It consists of the Germany, the Greater German Reich and then the colonies, occupied countries and protectorates of the Reich. Germany, Belgium, Greece, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Eastern Europe, Britain, etc. make up the GGR. The United States, Canada and France are occupied and were never officially annexed. India and parts of Africa have a protectorate status over them. Germany itself is the lands of lands of OTL Germany in 1939 plus Danzig, Poland, Lithuania, Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, the former Czechoslovakia and Austria. The rest of the world is indirectly allied to the Germanic Empire. Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Finland and Bulgaria are the biggest supporters of Germany.

Appendix E- Important People

Adolf Hitler, dies in 1958 – First Fuhrer
Heinrich Himmler, dies 1985 – Second Fuhrer
Hermann Goring, dies 1953
Storm Thurmond, leader of the American Nazi Party, dies 1994
Charles Lynton, leader of the British Union of Fascists, dies 2024
Kurt Haldweim, dies 2010 – Third Fuhrer

Appendix F- World Population as of 2010

Greater German Reich- 350,000,000
Germanic Empire, total size- 1,750,000,000
Japanese Empire- 725,000,000
United States – 135,000,000
Canada- 15,500,000
Mexico- 55,000,000
Other- 575,000,000

Part 3 plus better updated appendixs will be posted next. After the rough drafts are done, the final copy plus all the updated and fixed appendixs will be posted after that.
 
Peter said:
You do realize that this isn't an empiricial fact and only a theory from rightwingers?

I hate when people come dragging with their divine, flawless, obscure facts backed up by some even more obscure web-page and denouncing established theories with total confidence that this 'fact' is 100% right and everyone else is WRONG.

Well, I hate it when people, rather than providing their own facts which support their position, instead attack other posters for posting their own facts, regardless of how "divine, flawless, or obscure" they might be. If you disagree with what I posted, why don't you point out exactly how Roosevelt's policies shortened the Depression? The supposition that FDR saved America from the Depression is not an "established theory" except among left-wingers and neo-cons.
 
Axis Lose

Multiple problems. There are 3 Sea Lion scenarios--the OTL almost variation, the early (Mackey) variation and the late (1941) variation.

They have something in common.

None of them can possibly succeeed. Only the Macksey variant is even remotely worth discussing. The late variant was discussed and thoroughly trashed on this Board a while back. Check the archives.

World War Two POD's are so incredibly simple:

AXIS LOSE

Tom
 
Tom_B said:
World War Two POD's are so incredibly simple:

AXIS LOSE

Tom

I don't agree with this at all. Sure, Operation Sealion may be implausible, but how can you say without a shadow of a doubt that it could never happen? Tons of things happened throughout history that people said never could. Why exactly do you feel that there is absolutely nothing that the Axis powers could have done to win the war? And don't give me any crap about United States' industrial might.

Interesting TL, FederationX.
 
The OTL Sealion had so many problems it's difficult to know where to start. But first there's simply the logistics of the operation. The Germans didn't have enough sailors to man all the ships & barges. Then there are the barges themselves which are designed for the Rhine River, not for crossing the English Channel. All you need is a large swell, not even a storm or anything, & the barges will begin to sink.

Then there is the RAF. It was far from defeated in 1940. Any attempt to this cross the Channel would have been met with, not just Fighter Command, but Bomber Command as well. Imagine 500 Wellington Bombers blowing the crap out of the barges as they cross the Channel. I'd estimate the Germans would suffer something like 50% casualties before one German stepped foot on a beach at Dover.

Then there's the RN. What do you think the RN is going to do? Sail away somewhere else & hide? You'd have well over 100 RN ships, from destroyers to battleships, blocking the Channel & there's little that the Kreigsmarine could do in order to stop the RN doing whatever it wanted.

Then finally there is the geography of the landing zones. The cliffs of Dover are akin to a huge wall which can't be breached. Further south, you don't have the large cliffs, but once again the ground here is perfect as you can get for defence. And this is besides the fact that you have the Martello Towers lined all the way from Dover to south of Hythe which, needless to say, would be used as the foundation stone of any British defence. And all this is despite the fact that the British had something like 6-8 divisions covering the area, whilst the German invasion force wasn't much different in size, yet was depleted in artillery & armour.
 
robertp6165 said:
Well, I hate it when people, rather than providing their own facts which support their position, instead attack other posters for posting their own facts, regardless of how "divine, flawless, or obscure" they might be. If you disagree with what I posted, why don't you point out exactly how Roosevelt's policies shortened the Depression? The supposition that FDR saved America from the Depression is not an "established theory" except among left-wingers and neo-cons.

WTF? While I'll agree with you that there's an interesting paper to be written on the New Deal (though not for the reasons you said), I don't think anyone but morons and lunatics doesn't consider FDR to have been crucial for America.
 
Here are a few blocks of info that will be added to the timeline later on. Part 3 should be out soon and when its all done, I'll repost the entire thing in order, with all the appendixes included. I will add some more info to the appendixes and a few more are yet to be written, which will be out with the final edition.

Updated:

Appendix D- Germany

The Germanic Empire is the name given to Germany in this TL. It consists of Germany, the Greater German Reich and then the colonies, occupied countries and protectorates of the Reich. Germany, Belgium, Greece, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Eastern Europe, Britain, etc. make up the GGR. The United States, Canada and France are occupied and were never officially annexed. India and parts of Africa have a protectorate status over them. Germany itself is the lands of lands of OTL Germany in 1939 plus Danzig, Poland, Lithuania, Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, the former Czechoslovakia and Austria. The rest of the world is indirectly allied to the Germanic Empire. Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Finland and Bulgaria are the biggest supporters of Germany.

Official List of the Germanic Empire-

Germany consists of (OTL) – Germany, Poland, The Free City of Danzig, Lithuania, the French provinces of Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, Austria and the Czech Republic.

The Greater German Reich consists of – Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, the United Kingdom (excluding Northern Ireland) , Greece, Albania, India, Denmark, and Norway.

Occupied nations of the Germanic Empire: The United States, Canada and France

Colonies of the Germanic Empire: The Ukraine, the German territories in Africa, Iraq, Persia and the rest of the Middle East, Belorussia , Latvia/Estonia, and the rest of the Soviet Union (split up into Moscovy, Centralland and Siberia).

Allies of the Germanic Empire: Italy, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, Japan, South Africa, Mexico, Cuba, the South American nations all belonging to GAP, Turkey, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Bulgaria, and Romania.

New:

Appendix G- Second World War (Officially 1939-1944)

There are many changes in the World War 2 then in OTL. For one, the United States never enters. The United Kingdom loses hundreds of thousands troops in the Dunkirk Disaster. They also lose the Battle of Britain and the fight for North Africa. Winston Churchill takes control of the government with an iron fist in December 1941, a month after Operation Sealion. Another POD (Point of Divergence) is that the Germans are able to take Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad shortly after the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. Kursk falls in July of 1942 and the Germans are able to cross the Volga River in February of 1943. Japan is able to get the Dutch East Indies without a fight and the butterflies make sure they never commit suicide and declare war on the United States. While the British surrender in April of 1942, their military and colonial troops fight on until 1946, when India switches sides and surrenders to the Reich. North Africa fell in 1943. Russia never surrendered officially because their government collapsed in mid- 1942. All major resistance ended by 1945. Germany also accepted peace with ANZAC forces in 1943, returning to status-quo.
Appendix H- Third World War (Officially 1969-1970)

The United States went into this fight without a chance in hell. Germany and Japan surrounded it on both sides, with advanced missile technology. The United States Armed Forces was large, but greatly untested. The United States Army had a total number of 1,375,000 personal, the Marine Corps had 225,000, the Navy had 565,000 and the Air Force had 375,000 as of 1969. America lived in a dark world. It let its allies in Europe fall, one after after another until it was next. The United States used obsolete nuclear weapons and missiles. They were almost third rate compared to Germany's. The USA was shocked when Germany was able to land a man on the moon in 1958. America was barely able to launch a successful satellite in 1955. It was the last major power to test a nuclear weapon, three years after Japan in 1956. In the war, the U.S. Army fought in the Pacific, Mexico, Texas and New Mexico. The army and marine corps suffered terrible loses in the pacific, most notably, Hawaii and the Aleutian Island chain. The German invasion of Texas was only stopped through the use of nuclear weapons, on American soil. The Navy suffered loses in the Pacific and Atlantic theaters, however, the U.S. did win at Wake Island early in the war, destroying 3 Japanese aircraft carriers. The United States on a whole however, was not able to muster its strength because of the nuclear war. Canada easily went down America as well. Australia and New Zealand fought to the end to no avail and was forced to surrender after being invaded on the mainland. The war was quick and generally easy for the Axis, suffering minimal causalities. The OAN on the other hand was crushed.

Appendix I- The Germanic Colonial Ministry

The Germanic Colonial Ministry controls economic and living conditions in the German colonies and occupied countries. The food production in North America is under the direct control of the Colonial Ministry, as is the tea plantations in India, even though India enjoys the same status as the other nations of the GGR. Colonization of Africa and eastern Europe is stetted up by the ministry and all people's wishing to move to a colony must set up arrangements with the colonial authority's in that area. Encase of a problem where the German Armed Forces cannot help them, the Colonial Ministry is in control of a small Territorial Guard, which can protect it's personal in case of a problem. The Colonial Ministry answers to the Foreign Ministry in Berlin.
 
Most current military analysts do not believe that Operation Sealion would have succeeded if undertaken. The main difficulty was the lack of German naval assets in comparison to those of the Royal Navy.

However, it should not be overlooked that the Royal Navy could not bring its 10:1 superiority against the Kriegsmarine to bear as most of the fleet was engaged on the Atlantic as well as Mediterranean. Despite this setback, the British Home Fleet still had a significant advantage in numbers compared to the German Fleet.

In wargames conducted at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst after the war, which assumed that the Germans had total air superiority, the Germans were able to establish a beachhead in England by using a minefield screen in the English Channel. However, after a few days, the Royal Navy was able to cut off supplies to German troops in England, and they were then isolated and forced to surrender.

A mass invasion by sea however, may not have been necessary. In British wartime cabinet documents released in 1998, it was revealed that after the failure of the British Expeditionary Force in France and its evacuation at Dunkirk, Churchill had lost support in the cabinet and in Parliament. Had the Royal Air Force been defeated by the Luftwaffe, Churchill would have been replaced as Prime Minister by Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax, who was known to be in favour of peace negotiations with Germany rather than face a civilian bloodbath on British soil.
 
I thought Albania was occupied by Italy in 1939. How come the
Germans have it now? And with Yugoslavia apparently still in one piece shouldn't Greece be a purely Italian concern as well?
 
Sargon said:
However, I did like his 'Agent of Byzantium', so he's not a total disaster, but even that had flaws.

Sargon

Well Turtledove is suposed to have a doctorate in Byzantine history so he should get most of that right.

As for the rest of his literary endeavours lets just say that some of his stand alone books are entertaining but I was never able to get into any of the other series he wrote after the worldwar / colonisationseries.

david
 
Michael E Johnson said:
Interesting.I was hoping HT would put something like this in the book -but no luck-did you ever complete this?

I'm still working on parts of it. It should be finished within a week. It'll look nice, promoise! :D
 
JHPier said:
I thought Albania was occupied by Italy in 1939. How come the
Germans have it now? And with Yugoslavia apparently still in one piece shouldn't Greece be a purely Italian concern as well?

Your right my bad, thanks for pointing that one out. :) That'll get changed in my revisions.
 
Kurt_Steiner said:
Most current military analysts do not believe that Operation Sealion would have succeeded if undertaken. The main difficulty was the lack of German naval assets in comparison to those of the Royal Navy.

However, it should not be overlooked that the Royal Navy could not bring its 10:1 superiority against the Kriegsmarine to bear as most of the fleet was engaged on the Atlantic as well as Mediterranean. Despite this setback, the British Home Fleet still had a significant advantage in numbers compared to the German Fleet.

In wargames conducted at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst after the war, which assumed that the Germans had total air superiority, the Germans were able to establish a beachhead in England by using a minefield screen in the English Channel. However, after a few days, the Royal Navy was able to cut off supplies to German troops in England, and they were then isolated and forced to surrender.

A mass invasion by sea however, may not have been necessary. In British wartime cabinet documents released in 1998, it was revealed that after the failure of the British Expeditionary Force in France and its evacuation at Dunkirk, Churchill had lost support in the cabinet and in Parliament. Had the Royal Air Force been defeated by the Luftwaffe, Churchill would have been replaced as Prime Minister by Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax, who was known to be in favour of peace negotiations with Germany rather than face a civilian bloodbath on British soil.

I have no faith in Sealion, myself. However I'm trying to think of the most plausable way to do it, even though in real life that wouldn't work either.
My final copy will have a lot more information and will look better as a whole. I can't get rid of Churchill, however because he was the PM during the invasion in the book. Good information on Sealion, thank you.
 
FederationX said:
Germany tests their first nuclear bomb in 1947. Japan in 1953 and the United States 1956.

Um...I'm a little unclear as to why the Axis powers are able to develop nukes faster than the Americans. Did the Germans radically revise the math in their program and kill/capture most of the scientists who worked on Manhattan in OTL?

Also, what is the status of Italy? Is it integrated into the Reich, or does it still have its own independant empire?

Oh, and what does Japan control? I can easily see China, Eastern Siberia, and most of Southeast Asia. They get Australia and New Zealand too, right? Do they also get to share in the American and Canadian pies?
 
anti-anti-Sea Lion

We seem to be beating this "Sea Lion must fail" concept to death here. While one might question the USA-Depression stuff, the result is a more isolationist US in TTL.
(1) A fair amount of the materials for the Brits & Soviets came through Lend-Lease and, with that supply cut-off the Germans may fare better than OTL in the Soviet Union.
(2) With no US-Japan Pacific War, the British may be more likely to make peace with Japan and thus Japan serves as more of a threat to the USSR than OTL. Either that or the Brits may be stretched more than than OTL.
(3) The defeat of the U-Boats was in part due to US aid leading to naval skermishes between the Germans & US. No US aid => no U-boat attacks on US shipping => Less US attacks on U-boats

Once you start seeing the interactions between these points, then a successful Sea Lion becomes more probable. I agree with those who think that Sea Lion couldn't work without some monumental POD -- I think that FDR dying at Zangara's hands could be it if it led to the chain of events mentioned in this POD. You still have the British Navy to deal with along with the Home Guard and the USSR. I just don't buy the "impossible" argument.
 
FederationX said:
I have no faith in Sealion, myself. However I'm trying to think of the most plausable way to do it, even though in real life that wouldn't work either.
My final copy will have a lot more information and will look better as a whole. I can't get rid of Churchill, however because he was the PM during the invasion in the book. Good information on Sealion, thank you.


Sealion Scenario:

1) Completely scarp the OTL plans.

2) Restrict the Luffwaffe to south-east England. No going after London. Train several Stuka squadrons in anti-ship operations & ensure they have AP bombs.

3) Concentrate the Kreigsmarine in the Channel including U-Boats. Ensure Bismarck is fully operational (& Turpitz if possible).

4) Invade at the one location where the British don't expect it. In other words Ramsgate. The first priority is the port facilities. Use the barges only once. Thereafter use merchantmen & ferrys to move troops, equipment & supplies etc into the port.

5) Protect the convoys at all costs. Have U-Boats & mines block the southern entry to the Channel making it impossible for any RN attack. Station the capital ships of the Kriegsmarine to the north of the Channel backed up by the anti-shipping Stukas. All the while ensure that the entire area is protected by Luffwaffe fighters who are on constant patrols. The bombers conduct land support for the Herr.

6) After a few days build-up of the Herr, attack in two directions - one corps attacks towards Canterberry, whilst the other attacks along the coast to secure Deal (& its port) & then Dover. After this initial phase, teh second phase sees a two frontal assault towards London.

7) The most important battle, however, will take place at sea. Expect a major naval battle north-east of Ramsgate a few days day after the invasion. Flip a coin - heads Germans win, tails they lose. If they lose, the German invasion army is defeated (or forced to surrender) a week or so later due to lack of supplies. If the Germans win, Britian is probably defeated before the RN can put together another major force to make an effort to retake the Channel.
 
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