I think the reason people are so critical is that especially for the older generations ( those of us 30 and older ) the founding fathers ( while flawed ) were very idolized. so it was a bit of a let down to learn the more seedy side of those people.

again against the context of his time he wasn't bad or good, but people love to Monday morning quarterback and compare apples to cars in scope of time and cultural changes. note: that most all the liberties and open expression of today is a product of TODAY.. the difference between 1800 and 1300 isn't very great. hell most modern medicine we all love has only been around for 80 years give or take 10. cars? planes? internet? nuclear energy? space flight? the ability to travel from new York to paris in 3 -4 hours at ( supersonic speed ) when in 1800 it took a few weeks ( plus carriage / train time ( if you could get a train ) hell I would say for yet a few exceptions not much has changed expect how quickly you get news. people still love killing each other, and oppressing one another, and shoving there collective morals down each others throats complete with laser guided delivery.

Human nature is ugly and while it is good that we are moderating and trying to be less vile, just turn on the TV to see oh so how much we have changed. we just have shiny weapons that kill quicker.

I neither hate or like the man, The native americans were going to be pushed out one way or the other as North American history has proven since 1492. ( its sad and unfortunate and vile in what took place and most definatly could have been handled and managed better )
 
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It's like saying we can't blame FDR for Japanese internment, because it's "what the American people wanted at the time" -- well, you know what? The American people want a lot of bad things a lot of times -- we just got Donald fucking Trump as President because of it. So FUCK the American people! :mad:
well given the choice between the double colonoscopy with flowers and chocolates or the double colonoscopy, americans being cost conscious decided not to splurge on the flowers and chocolate.. get what ya pay for
 
It's like saying we can't blame FDR for Japanese internment, because it's "what the American people wanted at the time" -- well, you know what? The American people want a lot of bad things a lot of times -- we just got Donald fucking Trump as President because of it. So FUCK the American people! :mad:

It would probably be best to leave modern politics to the appropriate area. Otherwise, if tempers can't be kept under control here, the discussion will get closed.
 
While I know my view is not a popular one, I don't subscribe to moral relativism. Rape, slavery and genocide obviously cause human suffering and you're not let off the hook for doing them because most of your countrymen were cheering you on.
 
It's like saying we can't blame FDR for Japanese internment, because it's "what the American people wanted at the time" -- well, you know what? The American people want a lot of bad things a lot of times -- we just got Donald fucking Trump as President because of it. So FUCK the American people! :mad:


At most you can only do that to about half of them. The remainder can only be buggared.
 
For the Bank, people have pointed out that it doesn't exactly smell like roses, but people have also defended Jackson's spoils system with 'it's necessary and true neutrality is 50s years away' I think that removing the Bank ultimately was a step backward that harmed the United States- only Martin Van Buren ended up taking the blame instead.
 
For me, the Trail of Tears is just kind've emblematic of the "Fuck all y'all, I do what I want!" attitude Jackson brought to the Presidency. He demonstrated a pretty clear contempt for the separation of powers, and seemingly executed the office of the Presidency based on petty grudges rather than any kind of vision or policy.

I mean, we can agree that the Second Bank of the United States wasn't a perfect institution, but Jacksons actions had less to do with political/philosophical disagreements and more to do with a gut dislike of economics.
 

Stolengood

Banned
the "Fuck all y'all, I do what I want!" attitude Jackson brought to the Presidency. He demonstrated a pretty clear contempt for the separation of powers, and seemingly executed the office of the Presidency based on petty grudges rather than any kind of vision or policy.
Oh, no... we'll be getting Jackson 2.0 come 2017. won't we? :teary:
 
FUCK the American people! :mad:
Gee, thanks...
They did?
Yes. Many of the private citizens that I know of were missionaries in Cherokee lands that not only opposed the Indian Removal Act but a bunch of other attempts to drive Cherokee and other Indians away. There wound up being a law in Georgia requiring missionaries to take an oath of allegiance and obtain a permit to enter Indian territory. There may well have been a few quieter average Americans against it, but I don't know how well that preserves in history; although I did find a political cartoon that presents the plight of Cherokee country in a semi-sympathetic light. Most Congressional opposition came from the North (surprise).

Here's a copy of the speech by Senator Peleg Sprague from Maine against the Removal Act.

At the bottom of the page here is the quote by Edward Everett verbosely speaking against the act.

You can still see the results of the final Senate vote on the Indian Removal Act from this website.
diagram
As you can see 58% Yea to 40% Nay is hardly unanimous. This thing didn't pass in a single "Yep, sounds good to me, Indians get out reee". And a lot of the favor probably came from the ideas of some Senators and Andrew Jackson advertising the act as beneficial to the affected Native Americans, citing the near-disappearance of tribes in the northeast. If it was presented in the manner of "Hey let's get rid of all the Indians", there may have been even more bitter opposition.
William Wirt. John Quincy Adams. John Marshall.
Don't forget Davy Crockett, king of the wild frontier. He spoke out against the IRA. Wait, not that IRA. You certainly get a different idea when it's in acronym form...
 
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