Why didn't the USA become socialist a long time ago?

This is exactly the point I was going to make before I decided not to bother and instead just ignore what Bulls Run says.


My mistake. What I meant to say is Socialism = Tyranny, Classical Liberalism = Liberty. People can vote away their liberty for the sake of supposed safety from economic stress. But more to the point the reason why the USA hasn't gone socialist yet, is because the Constitution, if properly applied won't allow it. The citizens of the US must be vigilant though. I'm one of the reasons socialism hasn't worked yet. Myself, and 60 million + other voters who won't buy into it.

As for what happened on 2008, some of us were panicked by our economic October surprise, and also bought the centrist rhetoric of the current occupant of the White House. Now that he's governing from his radical roots, his popularity is plummeting. It was a big bait and switch but check back in November. We'll make it right. ;)
 
I think that it didn't happen because of two things: one: america is unlike any other nation on earth-we are a true melting pot with no engrained traditions of oppresssion and exploitation- there have been occurances of these things, yes, but no Traditions of them ie, dating back four hundred years or more; And secondly: our country was founded on the principle that no one man has more inherent value than any other, But, additional value can be aquired through hard work; our currency has always been respect.

I would also add and this is only tangentially related to your point (although what you said reminded me of it), is the lack of what might be called a 'aristocratic statist paternalistic conservatism' tradition in US political thought (although I have had others disagree with me on this). Or to put it more succintly there has never been a tradition of 'One Nation Toryism', or 'Red Toryism' in US conservative politics.

Many have suggested that in the UK and other nations, the intellectual precusor to social democracy was actually One Nation Toryism. The only difference was how it was expressed:

  • One Nation Toryism: The elite using government power to look after the 'lower orders' (which is I am sure how many in the 19th century looked at it)
  • Social democracy: The masses, using government power to improve living conditions for themselves.
A common thesis is that the existence of One Nation Toryism is essential (or at least beneficial) to the rise of social democracy by fostering a mindset (rightly or wrongly, depending on your own opinion) that is amenable to the notion that society should (particularly via government means) provide a minimum standard of living for all its members, regardless of what the market would otherwise provide.
 
Compared to today? Sure America up until the end of the Gilded age was a hell hole. Doesn't change that everywhere else was worse. Those black sharecroppers? Their standard of living skyrocketed compared to when they were actual slaves. And while people like Carnegie and Rockefeller were exceptions, there was a whole heck of a lot more class mobility in America than in any other nation you could name.

I'm not saying that it was a utopia, but it was an unprecedented land of equality and opportunity, because everywhere else was worse.
The standard of living of black sharecroppers skyrocketed compared to black slaves? :rolleyes: Not much of a stretch, seeing as how as a slave you had nowhere to go but down.
I can admit that I haven't studied late nineteenth century European society in great detail, so could you give some examples of comparable societies that were less well-off than the United States?
 
The schism between the agrarian/populist/greenback/granger/silverite school of thought (the champion of whom, the Great Commoner, was an evangelical anti-evolutionist) and the budding industrial labor movement in the late 19th/early 20th century.

Also internal division in the labor movement.

If the ATF had stood up in solidarity with Eugene Debs' ARU during the Pullman Strike, if the Farmer-Labor organization had then been inspired to do the same and caused populist and silverite "armies" (like Coxey and Hogan's 'armies' of protesters) to march...then we might have had socialism in the United States.

I agree broadly with a lot of the above, particularly what I have bolded.

One of the causes, but also I assume products of the failure of social democracy in the US, was the failure of the American trade union movement to ever develop a strong inter-union solidarity.

In other words, American unions were for the most part strongly attached to 'pure and simple unionism' as opposed to 'movement unionism'.
 
I would also add and this is only tangentially related to your point (although what you said reminded me of it), is the lack of what might be called a 'aristocratic statist paternalistic conservatism' tradition in US political thought (although I have had others disagree with me on this). Or to put it more succintly there has never been a tradition of 'One Nation Toryism', or 'Red Toryism' in US conservative politics.

Many have suggested that in the UK and other nations, the intellectual precusor to social democracy was actually One Nation Toryism. The only difference was how it was expressed:

  • One Nation Toryism: The elite using government power to look after the 'lower orders' (which is I am sure how many in the 19th century looked at it)
  • Social democracy: The masses, using government power to improve living conditions for themselves.
A common thesis is that the existence of One Nation Toryism is essential (or at least beneficial) to the rise of social democracy by fostering a mindset (rightly or wrongly, depending on your own opinion) that is amenable to the notion that society should (particularly via government means) provide a minimum standard of living for all its members, regardless of what the market would otherwise provide.

What would one call a Rocky Republican then? They're the closest to a One National/Red Tory, but to the left of a DLC Democrat economically.
Re bolded: a Lab voter said it, not me. I agree with him.
 

Teleology

Banned
My mistake. What I meant to say is Socialism = Tyranny, Classical Liberalism = Liberty. People can vote away their liberty for the sake of supposed safety from economic stress. But more to the point the reason why the USA hasn't gone socialist yet, is because the Constitution, if properly applied won't allow it. The citizens of the US must be vigilant though. I'm one of the reasons socialism hasn't worked yet. Myself, and 60 million + other voters who won't buy into it.

As for what happened on 2008, some of us were panicked by our economic October surprise, and also bought the centrist rhetoric of the current occupant of the White House. Now that he's governing from his radical roots, his popularity is plummeting. It was a big bait and switch but check back in November. We'll make it right. ;)

While the idea that Socialism equals Tyranny is ridiculous, intellectually incorrect, morally incorrect, and in poor taste; I will agree about Classical Liberalism.

The problem is today's conservatives aren't classical liberals, they're neoliberals. Exaggerating economic liberalism while working against liberalism on social/cultural issues doesn't just balance it out and make you a classical liberal overall.

The Founding Fathers were a complex bunch and left a strong legacy of both individualism and populism, small government and federalism; and even then the lines aren't clear. See Jefferson, the small-government movement's progenitor, massively intervening in the economy with the Embargo Act.

Classical Liberalism meant being both a economic AND a social liberal, to ignore the social/cultural aspect to it is incredibly disingenuous.

And the reason why at least 30 million+ of those 60 million voters won't buy into the intellectual falsehoods you mention is that fortunately this country has a strong history in the past century of resisting the incredibly communitarian and communist-esque impulses of the conservative movement.

There are plenty of classical liberals in the US who could never vote conservative because they would never vote for the people who support giving up your liberty for security (see the Patriot Act, see mindless nationalism, see irrational patrotism, see "you can't criticize the government when a war is on", see "my country right or wrong"). Those impulses of the conservative movement seem way more communist to me than any of the economic and social principles of the mainstream American left.

I couldn't leave your rash statement unanswered, but if you wish to continue this discussion let's take it to Political Chat.
 
The standard of living of black sharecroppers skyrocketed compared to black slaves? :rolleyes: Not much of a stretch, seeing as how as a slave you had nowhere to go but down.
I can admit that I haven't studied late nineteenth century European society in great detail, so could you give some examples of comparable societies that were less well-off than the United States?


Britain, France, Germany. All of them had much more rigid class boundaries.
 
Although he had a strong and obvious bias, Howard Zinn was pretty spot on I think when he said,

"One percent of the nation owns a third of the wealth. The rest of the wealth is distributed in such a way as to turn those in the 99 percent against one another: small property owners against the propertyless, black against white, native-born against foreign-born, intellectuals and professionals against the uneducated and the unskilled. These groups have resented one another and warred against one another with such vehemence and violence as to obscure their common position as sharers of leftovers in a very wealthy country."

America has been very good at being stable due to the way its Constitution was framed to limit both tyranny of the people and its leaders. This means that there has never been the necessary social upheaval to bring about a socialist change.

America may have been "the first modern, constitutional democracy" (or at least that is what they tell us in school, no one mentions the Corsican Republic) but the two great successes of the Constitution was allowing the people to successfully express themselves but is also very successful in keeping the people satiated and calm, even maybe sometimes when they should not be.

This is a tradition that began with the American Revolution itself. In some ways, it was a people's revolution but it was definitely one controlled by and inspired by the American elite. They may have been a well intending elite, thinking about the people, but some of the founding elite may have also been thinking about personal gain, wanting freedom from the Crown so they could control the Colonies themselves.

The biggest challenge to the United States of America, the ACW, was also an elite led event. Did poor, white sharecroppers really care about slavery? They shouldn't have but the landholding elite certainly wanted them to care about it. Of course, modern day people really do not understand how big of a deal State's Rights were, most not understanding the connection that they had to their individual states back then due to the ease of mobility these days, save for Texans :D. Furthermore, sectionalism has decreased to the aforementioned integration. But I digress...

Basically, the US has been very good at keeping its people quiet in a non-violent way, although it is willing to do that too...

Edit: It Didn't Happen Here looks really interesting... will have to buy. Capitalism wins again!
 
"Americans are born conservatives - just because America is so purely bourgeois, so entirely without a feudal past and therefore proud of its purely bourgeois organization"

"It is ... quite natural, that in such a young country, which has never known feudalism and has grown up on a bourgeois basis from the first, bourgeois prejudices should also be so strongly rooted in the working class."

Both are quotes from Friedrich Engles in the 1890s.
 
Funny you should mention that. My Grandfather's farm has an outhouse built by the WPA during the depression.


What can I say, except: your tax dollars at work.

Real nice of them to build a structure that was once home to the majority of black widow bites. :(
 
We need FDR's court packing bill brought out again

Modern Liberalism (Socialism) isn't he same as Classical Liberalism (Democracy) The US Constitution doesn't allow for the takeover of private property without just compensation that socialism requires. It also specifically restricted the power of the Federal government. The current socialist agenda goes against the principles of the founders of the US and in many ways is unconstitutional.

Tell that to the 5 ArchConservative "Socialists" on the Roberts Supreme Court that issued the Eminant Domain decision for PRIVATE developers. A ruling so intrusive into the private lives of American home owners that EVEN SEAN HANNITY, Glen Beck's fellow traveller on FOX NEWS, is screaming bloody murder over it, despite the fact that he pushed as hard as anyone for the appointments of Alito and Roberts.

We in America now live in a situation where any developer can have your home seized for a pittance by a corrupted ($$$) zoning board to put up a strip mall that will get no renters!:mad: The real beauty of this is after New London (Connecticut) won its' case and tore down all those tax revenue generating private homes, the developers decided to back out, leaving the town with a vast empty lot producing exactly-nothing! Modern capitalism in action!:p
 
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UT2020: That's the modern free market for you. It has its vices and its virtues. Re SCOTUS: POTUS is only going to be able to replace the liberals with other liberals- the conservatives are much younger and the next GOP POTUS (likely 2016) will be able to appoint the 5th, possibly 6th, conservative.
 
UT2020: That's the modern free market for you. It has its vices and its virtues. Re SCOTUS: POTUS is only going to be able to replace the liberals with other liberals- the conservatives are much younger and the next GOP POTUS (likely 2016) will be able to appoint the 5th, possibly 6th, conservative.

That's the beauty of it! Nothing ever changes...
 

cw1865

Source

Tell that to the 5 ArchConservative "Socialists" on the Roberts Supreme Court that issued the Eminant Domain decision for PRIVATE developers. A ruling so intrusive into the private lives of American home owners that EVEN SEAN HANNITY, Glen Beck's fellow traveller on FOX NEWS, is screaming bloody murder over it, despite the fact that he pushed as hard as anyone for the appointments of Alito and Roberts.

We in America now live in a situation where any developer can have your home seized for a pittance by a corrupted ($$$) zoning board to put up a strip mall that will get no renters!:mad: The real beauty of this is after New London (Connecticut) won its' case and tore down all those tax revenue generating private homes, the developers decided to back out, leaving the town with a vast empty lot producing exactly-nothing! Modern capitalism in action!:p

First off, Alito and Roberts WEREN'T EVEN ON THE COURT yet. Alito and Roberts replaced O'Connor and Rehnquist and both O'Connor and Rehnquist DISSENTED. In the Kelo decision the 'ArchConservative' Justices were quite clear that the 'public use' requirement is a necessary element of any eminent domain taking. O'Connor, Scalia and Thomas (O'Connor being a Republican appointee moderate, Scalia and Thomas being the far-right of the Court at the time): "An act of the Legislature (for I cannot call it a law) contrary to the great first principles of the social compact, cannot be considered a rightful exercise of legislative authority ... . A few instances will suffice to explain what I mean... . [A] law that takes property from A. and gives it to B: It is against all reason and justice, for a people to entrust a Legislature with such powers; and, therefore, it cannot be presumed that they have done it." Calder v. Bull, 3 Dall. 386, 388 (1798) (emphasis deleted).
Today the Court abandons this long-held, basic limitation on government power. Under the banner of economic development, all private property is now vulnerable to being taken and transferred to another private owner, so long as it might be upgraded--i.e., given to an owner who will use it in a way that the legislature deems more beneficial to the public--in the process. To reason, as the Court does, that the incidental public benefits resulting from the subsequent ordinary use of private property render economic development takings "for public use" is to wash out any distinction between private and public use of property--and thereby effectively to delete the words "for public use" from the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment. Accordingly I respectfully dissent."
 
Ignoring the biased and oft uninformed political discussion that this thread is in danger of becoming I say that there were three primary reasons that the US avoided becoming Socialist or Marxists and even avoided a serious violent uprising.

3. Long standing democratic traditions - many classes of people were treated very poorly in this nation but except for the blacks, until the 1960s, their members could vote and in areas where their numbers were great even get their own elected. This gave at least the illusion of a chance for change, especially locally where it mattered the most.

2. Relatively good social mobility - Even if you came to the US a dirt poor paperless immigrant you could expect your children to be in a far better position then you had been. This alone is a very strong motivation not to rock the boat. And it only got better over time. Sure men like Vanderbilt had tons of money but the wealth gap was largely irrelevant so long as everyone was doing better to some degree.

1. LAND! - Weird as it sounds the availability of cheap land during the early period of America's industrial revolution did a lot to ease what could have been a very difficult period. (Russia had a lot of land but much of it was controlled by landed elites and they lacked benefits #3 and #2.) Didn't like factory work...move west and get some land. Felt oppressed by the man...move west and get some land. Liked sheep a little too much...move west and get some land. Of course having a lot of people moving west all the time had the extra bonus of keeping wages in Eastern factories relatively high compared to other nations.

And the nations of Europe that also avoided socialist revolutions can also thank the USA for lessening the possible turmoil of the era, because many, many unhappy people packed up and left Europe for America. Just think of how much trouble there would have been if there was no where for the starving Irish or anger German Revolutionaries of 1848 to go. So if you have a POD that confines the US to east of the Mississippi or worse yet the Appalachians, that US will have a much higher chance of going socialist and Europe too may very well be a much less pleasant place.

Benjamin
 
Louis Hartz covered the same thesis much better 55 years ago.

The Hartzian thesis, which the authors of the book have promoted, has been heavily criticized by many for failing to pass historical muster.

The notion that America historically lacked institutions of feudalism is quite false. In many cases, they were abolished much later in the United States than in Britain, for example. Liberals and socialists alike allied to combat the remnants of feudalism in the American states during the Progressive era, in sharp contrast to Marks et al.'s simplistic thesis(1)

A lot better works have criticized the notion that America has always had a hegemonic liberal tradition (central to Hartz's thesis, and similarly to Lipset and Marks' book). American workers, simply put, were far from born conservative. In many cases, American left parties developed faster than equivalent ones in Britain and Germany.(2)

American poltical parties were able to better co-opt the labor movement than European establishment parties, often due to American sectionalism relating to the post-civil war political economy(3)

It's a complicated question, but I think the best works have looked at the unique interplay between mass politics and the state in America, most notably Robin Archer's fantastic Why is Their No Labor Party in the United States (Princeton University Press, 2008), particularly the role political repression played in the US. American socialists faced a much harsher climate of political repression by national and state governments, espescially after the Socialist Party of America mobilized opposition to American entry in the First World War.

1. For example, Rogers M. Smiths review of the tradition of American exceptionalism, “Beyond Tocqueville, Myrdal and Hartz: The Multiple Traditions in America.” American Political Science Review Vol. 87, No. 3 (Sep., 1993), pp. 549-566.

2. McNaught, Kenneth. “Comment on The Liberal Tradition.” In Failure of a Dream? Essays in the History of American Socialism, edited by John H.M. Lasset and Seymour Artin Lipset, 345-356. Berkley: University of California Press, 1984.

3. See Bensel, Richard Franklin. Sectionalism and American Political Development 1880-1980. Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1984.
 
Jeremy Rifkin, Author of "The European Dream" argues the following:

-Americans have the "go it alone" mentality, Europeans never really did
-Americans still think of freedom as being autonomous, Europeans tend to think it is being included in society (inclusivity)
-American hasn't seen a major war on its soil since the 1860s, while about 70 million Europeans died in the last century because of national rivalry brought about by hard-rightliners.
-Americans overwhelming abhor government involvement, most Europeans don't really mind.
-Americans just don't know how people on the other side feel
-Americans superiority complex when it comes to politics and the nation itself

All of which have hindered the rise of socialism in America.
 
My mistake. What I meant to say is Socialism = Tyranny, Classical Liberalism = Liberty. People can vote away their liberty for the sake of supposed safety from economic stress. But more to the point the reason why the USA hasn't gone socialist yet, is because the Constitution, if properly applied won't allow it. The citizens of the US must be vigilant though. I'm one of the reasons socialism hasn't worked yet. Myself, and 60 million + other voters who won't buy into it.

:rolleyes: fillerfillerteapartynutjobfillerfiller
 
My mistake. What I meant to say is Socialism = Tyranny, Classical Liberalism = Liberty. People can vote away their liberty for the sake of supposed safety from economic stress. But more to the point the reason why the USA hasn't gone socialist yet, is because the Constitution, if properly applied won't allow it. The citizens of the US must be vigilant though. I'm one of the reasons socialism hasn't worked yet. Myself, and 60 million + other voters who won't buy into it.

As for what happened on 2008, some of us were panicked by our economic October surprise, and also bought the centrist rhetoric of the current occupant of the White House. Now that he's governing from his radical roots, his popularity is plummeting. It was a big bait and switch but check back in November. We'll make it right. ;)
Talking In Slogans! won't make many people here take you serious.


LAND! - Weird as it sounds the availability of cheap land during the early period of America's industrial revolution did a lot to ease what could have been a very difficult period. Didn't like factory work...move west and get some land. Felt oppressed by the man... move west and get some land. Liked sheep a little too much... move west and get some land. Of course having a lot of people moving west all the time had the extra bonus of keeping wages in Eastern factories relatively high compared to other nations.
During the Industrial Era Europe usually had a labour surplus, and America usually had a labour shortage.
This of-course profoundly influenced labour relations.
American workers were indeed considerably less exploited and oppressed then their brethren oversees.

So they had less need for socialism.
 
benjamin has it down I think: land, social mobility, democracy.

I don't think social mobility was much different from European in terms of actual class relations, but what set it apart from other European nations was the social perception that mobility was possible. That sort of moderates the need for socialism (which is very class oriented). I should note that I'm really over-simplifying and over-generalizing it's obviously way more complex than that, but whatever.

Land is a huge thing. In most other places, good land was owned by landlords, and it was limited. So socialism sought to distribute that land very evenly amongst an eager and often hungry populace. In the United States, you can still settle land. Go figure.

Democracy plays a big role too. It also helps that for the past 50 years the United States was essentially embroiled in an international cold conflict with a nation that espoused radical communist ideology (but behind its back murdered thousands of civilians). That's like, a god sent for demonizing socialism and communism and conditioning a negative response towards it.
 
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