Why didn't Slovenia become German?

Valdemar II

Banned
A thing I have always wondered why did the Slovenians keep their own languages, they was integrated into Germany rather early, and the Slavic areas in the rest of Ostmark was germanised rather fast. But Slovenia just stayed linguistic distinct.

What historical consequences would a German Slovenia have? Not to insult Slovenians, but their people seem to have little effect on world culture in their own right and for most of their history seemed more like Slavic Germans than an independent nation. So beside unforseen butterflies would we see more or less our history until the 19th century?
 
Well, the Czechs didn't Germanize either, nor the Croats in the Ostmark.

If we hadn't let the South Slavs build that monstrosity, why not have a new Austrian state that included all the provinces below Bohemia:

Lower Austria
Upper Austria
Salzburg
Styria
Küstenland
Tirol
Vorarlberg

It would be 77% German and 9% Slovenian. That could work, couldn't it? Then Austria would still have a port, and people wouldn't have to worry so much about everyone Anschlussing.
 
If we hadn't let the South Slavs build that monstrosity

How is/was Slovenia a "monstrosity"? Sure, the Slovenes haven't been a united "people" since the creation of the first Yugoslavia, but there were several medieval Slavic kingdoms and duchies based in the area.
 
What's the timing here? Are we assuming that Germany incorporates parts of the Austrian Empire, including land west of Vienna -- Upper Austria, Graz, Bohemia, etc?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Well, the Czechs didn't Germanize either, nor the Croats in the Ostmark.

Both the Czechs and Croats to much large extent than the Slovenian seem to have had a national indentity before the birth of Modern Nationalism. Slovenians seem more like the early modern rump Wendish groups, Germans whom just happen to speak a Slavic language. But at the same time their linguistic borders seemed much more stable, than the Czechs or Croats.
If we hadn't let the South Slavs build that monstrosity, why not have a new Austrian state that included all the provinces below Bohemia:

Lower Austria
Upper Austria
Salzburg
Styria
Küstenland
Tirol
Vorarlberg

It would be 77% German and 9% Slovenian. That could work, couldn't it? Then Austria would still have a port, and people wouldn't have to worry so much about everyone Anschlussing.

Yes I agree that would work, but the problem was that Slovenia decided to join the Yugoslavian Kingdom, no matter how much of a abomination it was, and how much they regreted it a few years later. Of course some of it may have been a result of fear of Italian takeover, but there's no doubt that in 1918 Slovenian wasn't just German speaking a German dialect, they was a full nation in their own right.

But honestly I think letting Austria keep Slovenia, Küstenland and Tyrol would have been a lot better, the state would have seen itself as much more viable, and that was Austrias primary problem after WWII, that its citizens didn't see the state as viable, and as such the Anschluss was the only real option.
 
Slovenians seem more like the early modern rump Wendish groups, Germans whom just happen to speak a Slavic language.

Very unlikely, seeing as Slovenian is probably the most conservative Slavic language, and the most conservative member of the South Slavic dialect continuum. The conservative Kajkavian variety of (Serbo-)Croatian greatly resembles Slovenian, showing a close affinity between Slovenian and Croatian. My guess is that the Slovenes are descendants of the early White Croats (or a neighboring group that followed them) who maintained most aspects of the old language.

On another note, you can make a sort of parallel to the germanification of the Wendish Serbs (Sorbs) of Germany to the ATL germanification of Slovenes. Intermarriage was very common between the native Sorbian and German communities, and as German was the langauge of prestige, education and administration, Sorbian has declined to only 50,000 or so speakers. The same could have happened to Slovene if you had more German-speaking settlers.
 
Both the Czechs and Croats to much large extent than the Slovenian seem to have had a national indentity before the birth of Modern Nationalism. Slovenians seem more like the early modern rump Wendish groups, Germans whom just happen to speak a Slavic language. But at the same time their linguistic borders seemed much more stable, than the Czechs or Croats.

But not as ethnic nations. There was a Bohemian identity, and a Croatian Kingdom, but neither were homogeneous ethnic-national states.

Anyway, I agree with Konstantin - you just need more Germans in the Slovenian areas.

Yes I agree that would work, but the problem was that Slovenia decided to join the Yugoslavian Kingdom, no matter how much of a abomination it was, and how much they regreted it a few years later. Of course some of it may have been a result of fear of Italian takeover, but there's no doubt that in 1918 Slovenian wasn't just German speaking a German dialect, they was a full nation in their own right.

But honestly I think letting Austria keep Slovenia, Küstenland and Tyrol would have been a lot better, the state would have seen itself as much more viable, and that was Austrias primary problem after WWII, that its citizens didn't see the state as viable, and as such the Anschluss was the only real option.

That's pretty much how I feel.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
But not as ethnic nations. There was a Bohemian identity, and a Croatian Kingdom, but neither were homogeneous ethnic-national states.

I blame the fact that you're native English speaker and you (plural about most English speakers) use nation as a synonym for state, nation are just a term for a group with a common identity, it's why I differ between modern and pre-modern nationalism. Modern Nationalism are the idea that people whom share a common identity should live together in a unitarian state. While people of the past didn't share that segment, it didn't mean that they didn't have a common identity and showed a reserve to outsiders.

Anyway, I agree with Konstantin - you just need more Germans in the Slovenian areas.

Likely the question are why it didn't happen, was it because Slovenia lay so isolated that they didn't need to repopulate village regular as they needed other places, the lack of urban area serving as German enclaves from there their languages could be spread, difference in climate.
That's pretty much how I feel.

The problem was that it would have been wrong to force down over the Slovenians, Croats and Italians if they was against it.
 
Intermarriage was very common between the native Sorbian and German communities, and as German was the langauge of prestige, education and administration, Sorbian has declined to only 50,000 or so speakers. The same could have happened to Slovene if you had more German-speaking settlers.

I think this could even have happened without more German settlers. If Slovenia stayed with Austria (rather difficult to imagine, but anyway in OTL) or generally with a German-dominated state, learning German would simply be a necessity. Many Slovenes would move to German-dominated regions to work or study and the other way round, yet only a fraction of the Germans would learn fluent Slovene. Gradually, German becomes more and more established on a daily basis in television, literature, education and administration.
 
I think this could even have happened without more German settlers. If Slovenia stayed with Austria (rather difficult to imagine, but anyway in OTL) or generally with a German-dominated state, learning German would simply be a necessity. Many Slovenes would move to German-dominated regions to work or study and the other way round, yet only a fraction of the Germans would learn fluent Slovene. Gradually, German becomes more and more established on a daily basis in television, literature, education and administration.

Until they get a counter-culture going that pushes for a Slovenian identity, more Slovenian in schools, autonomy for Slovenian lands, etc.
 
As said more Germans is the key.
With east Germany (old east Germany) the Germans just kept moving east as a big mass devouring all in their way (or whatever it is masses of Germans do).
Slovenia though largely just sat there, quite unbothered by the people.
I think you'd need someway to make the Austrians move south en masse as their northern brothers went east (wonder why they didn't IOTL....).

Well, the Czechs didn't Germanize either, nor the Croats in the Ostmark.
The Czechs largely did IIRC.
I remember reading something about how around 1800 Bohemian nationalist scholars recreated the Czech language and having to draw on people from the backwoods of the country to do it. All signs I can find right now seem to say they were peasents from within the (modern) Czech Republic but a piece I read in Prague a while back said they had to bring in a lot of Slovaks even.

This Germanisation was largely forced though.
 
Well, the Czechs didn't Germanize either, nor the Croats in the Ostmark.

If we hadn't let the South Slavs build that monstrosity, why not have a new Austrian state that included all the provinces below Bohemia:

Lower Austria
Upper Austria
Salzburg
Styria
Küstenland
Tirol
Vorarlberg

It would be 77% German and 9% Slovenian. That could work, couldn't it? Then Austria would still have a port, and people wouldn't have to worry so much about everyone Anschlussing.

Hmmm, Küstenland - you learn something new every day!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Top