Why didn't Philippines and Taiwan Sinicize?

Yeah, that's a possibility. Islam could probably have taken over the rest of the Philippines, and it's not far from there.

Yes its is possible since the Bruneians are holding parts of the Philippines and the rest are either in their influence or raided by them.

It is a possibility not an assurance.

Both Sulu and Brunei are not good in spreading religion. In OTL, Both Mindanao near sulu and Sarawak surrounding Brunei were not predominantly Muslim. For Mindanao it never was. It had to be the British/Malaysians who made North Borneo/Sarawak Islam.

The more likely scenario is Luzon reverts back to hindu/animists while Visayas remains Hindu and resistant to Islam. Or Luzon becomes Chinese. Luzon during this time period had more Chinese than supporters of Islam, Sultanate of Manila, Brunei. just to get an idea, The Spanish during their 1570 invasion could muster the same amount of Christians vs the Rajah Suleiman can muster those warriors that can fight for Islam. This is after almost one hundred years of Islamic rule. While the Chinese within the same time period, can muster tens of thousands in Manila albeit angry traders/migrants. Or any Chinese invasion force even just pirate(would be multiple times greater than what Brunei and Sulu can muster).

If we are going to make Luzon Islam, without changing anything how Brunei or Sulu runs things, both Brunei and Sulu must keep on holding those areas until any similar OTL 20th century tech. Brunei and Sulu are not good at spreading religion, annexing and assimilating conquered lands.

It means Brunei empires needs to survive any invasion from Chinese, which did happen within the same time period. Limahong(Chinese pirate/couple of years from Legazpi invading Luzon) did invade the Philippines which Brunei/Sulu wont have any answer to. Plus whatever Chinese migrants/trader living in Manila. Of course, any rebellion by any hindu/animist local who still views Brunei/Sulu and Islam as invaders. Down the line You still got Koxinga. The common factor of stopping any of these Chinese invasion/pirates was the modern tactics/firepower of the Spanish.
 
I tough Taiwan was han chinese...

I think what he's asking is "Why wasn't there Han settlement of Taiwan long before the late seventeenth century?" After all, it's not that far from Fujian, and the Chinese were not ignorant of navigation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

The most obvious answer is that the island just didn't have anything of interest to the Chinese, who were busy Sinicizing southeastern China--one of the world's most populated areas today, but in those days a frontier, largely populated (like Taiwan) by indigenous tribes.
 

If Brunei retains its Empire, the fall of the Ming will be butterflied so no Koxinga.

No, the main reason why Brunei stayed in Luzon and did not get booted out except by the Spanish is that they and the satellite states that they installed were stronger than the Native polities like Kaboloan which also have claims in Tondo and are under Majapahit influence before that time, How the Majapahit empire's influence in Luzon got destroyed, the Bruneians destroyed the ties and trade between the areas under their influence in Luzon aside from just annexing Tondo and Brunei took over the role of Java with the Japanese/Ryukyu trade(that is why the Japanese supported the Tondo conspiracy).

Actually, the Bruneian conquest of Tondo could push the areas that are loyal to Majapahit to Portuguese suzerainty like East Timor but that scenario is another topic but that was averted due to Marriage treaties/ties.
 
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I think what he's asking is "Why wasn't there Han settlement of Taiwan long before the late seventeenth century?" After all, it's not that far from Fujian, and the Chinese were not ignorant of navigation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

The most obvious answer is that the island just didn't have anything of interest to the Chinese, who were busy Sinicizing southeastern China--one of the world's most populated areas today, but in those days a frontier, largely populated (like Taiwan) by indigenous tribes.
Yes and Guangxi and Yunnan still has tribes that are not Chinese.
 
Yes and Guangxi and Yunnan still has tribes that are not Chinese.

BTW, you said in https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-people-hold-south-china.327499/#post-9731371 that the Yue, the natives of Southern China, were the ancestors of the Thais. That's true but it should be noted that the Yue weren't all Tai. The Chinese applied the term Yue to a series of different groups, that included Austroasiatics, Tais, Hmong-Mien, Austronesians and maybe even Negritos.
 
China was (and still is) vibrantly diverse with small ethnic groups, a lot of which fall through the cracks. It wouldn't surprise me if there were still Negrito groups in Southern China to this day. And ultimately, it was more that China never really was a massive naval power. Yes, yes, I know about Zheng He, but in the grand scheme of things China didn't particularly have the same kind of naval tradition that a lot of other nations have.

IMO a more interesting scenario is if Taiwan ends up going Viking and small Taiwanese tribes end up setting up small states across China and Japan during a period of Chinese disunity kind of like the Vikings in Europe.
 
China was (and still is) vibrantly diverse with small ethnic groups, a lot of which fall through the cracks. It wouldn't surprise me if there were still Negrito groups in Southern China to this day. And ultimately, it was more that China never really was a massive naval power. Yes, yes, I know about Zheng He, but in the grand scheme of things China didn't particularly have the same kind of naval tradition that a lot of other nations have.

IMO a more interesting scenario is if Taiwan ends up going Viking and small Taiwanese tribes end up setting up small states across China and Japan during a period of Chinese disunity kind of like the Vikings in Europe.

There aren't Negritos in Southern China, anymore. Currently, as far as I know, the northernmost Negritos are in the Philippines. However, it's likely that in the past, there were Negritos as far north as Southern China.
 
Actually, the Bruneian Empire is similar to the Angevin Empire it is a Network of States of Satelite states and its Tributary or states under its influence, thus not a centralized state.

The Question what would be the name of the Archipelago ITTL?
 
Actually, the Bruneian Empire is similar to the Angevin Empire it is a Network of States of Satelite states and its Tributary or states under its influence, thus not a centralized state.

The Question what would be the name of the Archipelago ITTL?
I know that there was the Chinese term Ma-i/Mayi which either meant Mindoro or all of the PI
 
Batanes at the very least can plausibly be Sinicized, but the more southern parts of the islands, I highly doubt so.

Luzon or at least those that got high chinese population, vulnerable to pirate Chinese invasion, got a high chance to be Sinicized, Visayas, Mindanao not so much. OTL Philippine division would be those Sinicized, remain under old Malay(remaining or reverting back as a hindu state) or those converted to Islam and transitioned to Classical Malay.

The Question what would be the name of the Archipelago ITTL?

Unified name for the archipelago in OTL is a European thing. Even the division of the east indies is based upon limits of each European colony. Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines are based upon each of the European colonies.

e.g. had Spain won 1570s and 1600s vs Brunei and the Dutch in asia, All of indonesia and Malaysia would be named as Philippines. When the Spanish initially named Philippines as such, it was limited to Samar and Leyte islands, it expanded to include the rest of Visayas, Luzon and Mindanao.

In the absence of unified polity, naming would still remain by its city states or each island.

I know that there was the Chinese term Ma-i/Mayi which either meant Mindoro or all of the PI

the islands got each specific names from even the Chinese/Japanese. e.g. Luzon- Lu-Song, Ruson

For Panay/Madyas, its like Pi-Sho-Ye.
 
Luzon or at least those that got high chinese population, vulnerable to pirate Chinese invasion, got a high chance to be Sinicized, Visayas, Mindanao not so much. OTL Philippine division would be those Sinicized, remain under old Malay(remaining or reverting back as a hindu state) or those converted to Islam and transitioned to Classical Malay.

Northern Luzon is basically the land that the Malays call as Selurong and what the Chinese call as Sanfotsi and a possible Hindu Javanese refugia like Bali, it is Southern Luzon that has Chinese population especially Manila which they call as Lusung, Batangas/Kumintang is also hostile to the Chinese.

I have a current TL where the Spanish were busted by the Bruneians.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...e-–-felipinas-no-imperio-de-brunei-si.472176/

Northern Luzon would be speaking a language that is a combination of OTL Filipino and Javanese (which is one of the N. Luzon languages) without the Spanish conquest or without the 17th century famine.
 
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Chapters 1 & 2 of this video (by the late brain4breakfast, rest in peace) should explain why Taiwan isn't Sinicised earlier:


To sum up:
  1. Tropical climate and disease are nasty.
  2. The Austronesians are tough as af to dislodge (a lot of which has to do with Factor 1, and having adapted to it very well)
  3. Just not attractive as a colony, at least at first. It's only with the necessity of trade with China (and Japan) that both the Dutch and Spaniards set up shop in Taiwan, and again, the first two factors would come to torment them both.
These factors can apply to the Philippines too, and even the rapid expansion of the Chinese diaspora during the Victorian era was driven by other factors, and none of which were sponsored by China.
 
There are parts of southern China even more tropical than Taiwan, and China held Tonkin for a long time, so I doubt climate was the decisive factor. The interesting thing is even the Mongols never went after Taiwan, despite sending expeditions to Japan and Indonesia. The Ming fleet under Zheng He established outposts in Penang and Java and never bothered with Taiwan.

Could it have something to do with Taiwan being too small to be worth it and too isolated to be a threat? When China expanded it often had to do with controlling trade routes or subduing potential enemies. Taiwan was neither of those things really. Chinese rulers probably found it to be impoverished and had no interest in it just like how they had no interest in the Ryukyus.
 
Chapters 1 & 2 of this video (by the late brain4breakfast, rest in peace) should explain why Taiwan isn't Sinicised earlier:


To sum up:
  1. Tropical climate and disease are nasty.
  2. The Austronesians are tough as af to dislodge (a lot of which has to do with Factor 1, and having adapted to it very well)
  3. Just not attractive as a colony, at least at first. It's only with the necessity of trade with China (and Japan) that both the Dutch and Spaniards set up shop in Taiwan, and again, the first two factors would come to torment them both.
These factors can apply to the Philippines too, and even the rapid expansion of the Chinese diaspora during the Victorian era was driven by other factors, and none of which were sponsored by China.

Luzon before the Spanish came, the Coastal Lowlands was Muslim and the Innlands Highlands are Hindu and Animist which is not forced, in the south the Islam religion came via Influence while in the North it is due to marriage with the Bruneians due to their seizure of Tondo, it is similar to Mindanao..while Visayas remained Pagan, the OP is saying that how one of the Philippine states can turn out as like Japan and Korea and that is via a marriage between one of the Philippine statelets and the Mongols.

But if Luzon was under Mongol influence it would mean that Islam would arrive soon in that area, since they were trading with Sumatra as well.

There are parts of southern China even more tropical than Taiwan, and China held Tonkin for a long time, so I doubt climate was the decisive factor. The interesting thing is even the Mongols never went after Taiwan, despite sending expeditions to Japan and Indonesia. The Ming fleet under Zheng He established outposts in Penang and Java and never bothered with Taiwan.

Could it have something to do with Taiwan being too small to be worth it and too isolated to be a threat? When China expanded it often had to do with controlling trade routes or subduing potential enemies. Taiwan was neither of those things really. Chinese rulers probably found it to be impoverished and had no interest in it just like how they had no interest in the Ryukyus.

Zheng He and YongLe did make expedition to the area of Luzon that are not under Majapahit Influence.
 
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