why didn't/don't urban native american cultures move particularly far north

In real life there WERE urban societies deep in North America, from the Mississippi all the way into the New England area (though they were on a much smaller scale). There's even compelling new evidence to suggest that the Amazon was far more populous than originally thought and dotted with agriculturally advanced villages.

I suspect you never see cities emerge outside Mesoamerica in alternate histories because most people are incredibly uninformed about the Pre-Columbian New World...
 

mowque

Banned
There's even compelling new evidence to suggest that the Amazon was far more populous than originally thought and dotted with agriculturally advanced villages..
I've heard of it, but don't know any details. Any way to see the research?
 
I suspect you never see cities emerge outside Mesoamerica in alternate histories because most people are incredibly uninformed about the Pre-Columbian New World...
This would be the correct answer, I am thinking. It's surprising how many people don't even care to research Native-American stuff.
 

T-rex blood

Banned
In real life there WERE urban societies deep in North America, from the Mississippi all the way into the New England area (though they were on a much smaller scale). There's even compelling new evidence to suggest that the Amazon was far more populous than originally thought and dotted with agriculturally advanced villages.

I suspect you never see cities emerge outside Mesoamerica in alternate histories because most people are incredibly uninformed about the Pre-Columbian New World...
OK I specified CITIES, also I was think more along the lines of like Canada or Washington
 

mowque

Banned
OK I specified CITIES, also I was think more along the lines of like Canada or Washington
Plenty of large settled groups in Washington. I can't recall the name, something with a 'K'. Basically, fishing groups, totem poles and such.
 
I've heard of it, but don't know any details. Any way to see the research?
I found out about it by reading the book "1491" by Charles C. Mann, who was kind enough to list every single one of his sources in the bibliography. Unfortunately a friend recently borrowed it, so I don't have it on hand to refer you to...

Though while I'm at it, it also presents recent evidence for an urban culture that existed in the Beni region of Bolivia, on the periphery of the Amazon, as well as the idea that much of the Amazon rainforest actually exists due to human agricultural activity.
 
OK I specified CITIES, also I was think more along the lines of like Canada or Washington
In that case, there's the Haida in British Columbia, Canada. They had large settlements, social hierarchies, polities with complex diplomatic relationships, etc.
 
Plenty of large settled groups in Washington. I can't recall the name, something with a 'K'. Basically, fishing groups, totem poles and such.
Oh, you mean the Kwakiutl? They were far from the only ones, there's also the Tlingit, Tsimshian, Haida, Bella Coola, Salish, and others. Yeah, they had settlements worthy of being called towns. No cities, but I suspect that has to do with the fact there aren't really enough people there to create a city in the first place. Iroquoian settlements could also be quite large, with up to several hundreds of people I've heard.
 
I found out about it by reading the book "1491" by Charles C. Mann, who was kind enough to list every single one of his sources in the bibliography. Unfortunately a friend recently borrowed it, so I don't have it on hand to refer you to...

Though while I'm at it, it also presents recent evidence for an urban culture that existed in the Beni region of Bolivia, on the periphery of the Amazon, as well as the idea that much of the Amazon rainforest actually exists due to human agricultural activity.
There are also documentaries I've seen relating to that, though I can't remember all the details. But it mentions that cities aren't necessarily of stone, and the terra preta the natives of the Amazon used for soil is extremely fertile, and they've found ancient orchards and the evidence suggests settlements on the scale of the Mississippians is quite possible. And modern native villages are also quite organized. And then there's Orellana's report to consider.
 

T-rex blood

Banned
Urban = Not nomadic. Therefore, yes. "Settled" does imply urban, or at least moving toward greater urbanization. A "village" of 2,000 amidst "villages" of 200 certainly qualifies as a city in a relative sense, no?
then why do people describe the pre Roman Britain as not being Urban if they weren't nomadic
 
Oh, you mean the Kwakiutl? ...
Speaking of the Kwakiutl, I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and had a friend who could speak some Kwak'wala as a second language :D

is a large settlement the same as an urban society
When there's many of them interacting, yes, I believe that's the case. It's an early urban society still in the process of maturing, to be sure... But it's an urban society nonetheless.
 
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