Why Did Western Europe not use Horse Archery?

Europe just happened to be far from the centers of the empire-building processes of the horse-archer-based steppe hordes.
But people tend to forget the Huns.
The actual size of their Empire is uncertain, but my guess it was somewhere in between the territories marked on the following maps:
Huns_empire.png


618px-Huns450.png


1024px-450_roman-hunnic-empire_1764x1116.jpg


The first time the Western Europe got acquainted with horse archers was somewhere about 600 BC. And I mean deep Europe like Southern France - the Scythian artifacts especially arrowheads together with the burned settlements are found even there.

The Huns' armies mostly consisted of Germanic infantry during the reign of Attila, when they achieved their major successes. Nor when Attila died were they able to stop their Germanic subjects, most of whom were spear-armed infantry, from reasserting their independence -- a fact which is quite surprising, if we suppose that horse archers are easily able to beat infantry.
 
And there were no horse-archer-based armies of (1) Europe or (2) China during this period. Horse archery was remarkably, consistently successful when fighting in a particular type of terrain, less so in other types of terrain.

1. Russia, Ottomans; heavy use by Byzantines, early Hungarians, etc. You mean westernmost Europe; in which case, yes, not since the Roman era.
2. Qing, Yuan, Jin, Liao; heavy use by Tang and the smaller dynasties between them and the Yuan. The nobleman with bow and horse is also staple in Korea and Japan.

You might reasonably object that these people were either on the borders of Europe or China, or else were foreign conquerors, not Han states. Once again, perfectly reasonable objection, but like John noted, it's the difference between Arabs and Mamluks, probably cultural. Farousiyya definitely has instructions for horse archery, for example, but it's the product of a military elite that liked the bow.
 
1. Russia, Ottomans; heavy use by Byzantines, early Hungarians, etc. You mean westernmost Europe; in which case, yes, not since the Roman era.
2. Qing, Yuan, Jin, Liao; heavy use by Tang and the smaller dynasties between them and the Yuan. The nobleman with bow and horse is also staple in Korea and Japan.

You might reasonably object that these people were either on the borders of Europe or China, or else were foreign conquerors, not Han states. Once again, perfectly reasonable objection, but like John noted, it's the difference between Arabs and Mamluks, probably cultural. Farousiyya definitely has instructions for horse archery, for example, but it's the product of a military elite that liked the bow.

I'd argue that the quoted examples were infantry-based because that's what most of their soldiers were, even if the elite troops fought as horse archers.

Possibly agrarianism and population density are the main factors: in sedentary, densely-populated areas like Europe or China, there are generally going to be a lot of walled towns an invading army needs to take, so you might as well save on the horses and take infantry instead, whereas when fighting steppe nomads mobility is more important, so cavalry would be a better investment.
 
I'd argue that the quoted examples were infantry-based because that's what most of their soldiers were, even if the elite troops fought as horse archers.

Possibly agrarianism and population density are the main factors: in sedentary, densely-populated areas like Europe or China, there are generally going to be a lot of walled towns an invading army needs to take, so you might as well save on the horses and take infantry instead, whereas when fighting steppe nomads mobility is more important, so cavalry would be a better investment.

I mean, fair enough. It's sort of a feature of low-density, high-mobility populations that they can recruit a much higher percentage of the total manpower and punch way above their demographic weight, and the efficiency of the horse archer as a universal soldier really helps with that. They're not undefeatable, but clearly they troubled and sometimes straight up defeated much richer and larger opponents.

I guess we should make a distinction between armies that simply recruit people who happen to use horses and bows on a daily basis, and armies that are either ruled by elites descended from such people (Mamluks, Qing) or have simply adopted and adapted the military culture (Russia, Byzantines). The latter two categories always end up with more infantry and support troops, but I'd argue it's at least equally because of the costs of recruiting warriors of a particular skillset from a population whose daily lifestyle does not actually use these skills as it is for tactical reasons (infantry being more efficient at sieges or crossbows having more range or whatever people are suggesting.)

I mean, in all the settled societies the horse archers were either very well paid and regarded mercenary professionals, or more commonly were the actual feudal elite and rulers. That's because nobody else outside the gentry in Russia or China or Egypt had time or the means to go hunting with a bow on horseback.
 
I mean, fair enough. It's sort of a feature of low-density, high-mobility populations that they can recruit a much higher percentage of the total manpower and punch way above their demographic weight, and the efficiency of the horse archer as a universal soldier really helps with that. They're not undefeatable, but clearly they troubled and sometimes straight up defeated much richer and larger opponents.

I guess we should make a distinction between armies that simply recruit people who happen to use horses and bows on a daily basis, and armies that are either ruled by elites descended from such people (Mamluks, Qing) or have simply adopted and adapted the military culture (Russia, Byzantines). The latter two categories always end up with more infantry and support troops, but I'd argue it's at least equally because of the costs of recruiting warriors of a particular skillset from a population whose daily lifestyle does not actually use these skills as it is for tactical reasons (infantry being more efficient at sieges or crossbows having more range or whatever people are suggesting.)

I mean, in all the settled societies the horse archers were either very well paid and regarded mercenary professionals, or more commonly were the actual feudal elite and rulers. That's because nobody else outside the gentry in Russia or China or Egypt had time or the means to go hunting with a bow on horseback.

I'm not sure that horse archers really are "universal soldiers". I mean, they're mobile and can kill from a distance, which are both nice qualities to have, but they can't (say) hold ground very well, or assault fortifications. On the steppes, where there are few if any fortifications and there's plenty of space to retreat across, this doesn't really matter, and horse archers reign supreme: but in somewhere more wooded or mountainous, such as Western Europe or southern China, there's a greater risk of the horse archers getting trapped against some geographical feature and being destroyed; and when it comes to siege warfare, the horses are just useless extra mouths. It's probably not a coincidence that the Mongol armies which conquered southern China and the Huns who ravaged the Balkans both had a majority of infantrymen in their armies, not horse archers.
 
The Huns' armies mostly consisted of Germanic infantry during the reign of Attila, when they achieved their major successes.
Let's put it this way - the Huns conquered all these territories, they controlled these lands and forced the tribes, living there to fight for the Hunnic Empire.
That shows:
1) the nomadic tribes using horse archers as their core troops were able to create huge empires outside the Great steppe long before the Mongols
2) the armies with an emphasis on the horse archers were able to fight and win on the terrain which is considered by many as extremely unsuitable for the use of the nomadic horse troops (the heavily forested lands of Europe they were at that time).

Nor when Attila died were they able to stop their Germanic subjects, most of whom were spear-armed infantry, from reasserting their independence -- a fact which is quite surprising, if we suppose that horse archers are easily able to beat infantry.
There is nothing surprising in spear-armed infantry beating the horse archers.
What makes you think so?

The nomadic entities (with their core troops being horse archers) are always at disadvantage against the sedentary civilizations.
The population density in the nomadic steppes is dramatically lower than in the sedentary cultures.
The sedentary empires sometimes may lose an army after an army after an army...
A nomadic army annihilated sometimes means that there are only old men, women and kids left at home.
That's one of the (many) reasons why the nomadic empires are sometimes so short lived.

I don't remember who said so 'the Gods of war always favor bigger battalions' (or something like that...).
 
Last edited:
successful all the way from the early iron age

How early are we talking about? Who came up with horse archery by the way? I somehow doubt it was the Mongols (although they perfected it).

(you can guess, fishing for ideas for my TL :p)
 
Let's put it this way - the Huns conquered all these territories, they controlled these lands and forced the tribes, living there to fight for the Hunnic Empire.
That shows:
1) the nomadic tribes using horse archers as their core troops were able to create huge empires outside the Great steppe long before the Mongols
2) the armies with an emphasis on the horse archers were able to fight and win on the terrain which is considered by many as extremely unsuitable for the use of the nomadic horse troops (the heavily forested lands of Europe they were at that time).

The Huns' early successes -- i.e., when their forces were most purely Hunnic and had the least admixture of foreign soldiers -- were on the steppes or the Hungarian Plain. By the time they started fighting in heavily forested lands, they already had a lot of Germanic (chiefly Gothic) subjects in modern-day Hungary to draw on.

There is nothing surprising in spear-armed infantry beating the horse archers.
What makes you think so?

The nomadic entities (with their core troops being horse archers) are always at disadvantage against the sedentary civilizations.
The population density in the nomadic steppes is dramatically lower than in the sedentary cultures.
The sedentary empires sometimes may lose an army after an army after an army...
A nomadic army annihilated sometimes means that there are only old men, women and kids left at home.
That's one of the (many) reasons why the nomadic empires are sometimes so short lived.

I don't remember who said so 'the Gods of war always favor bigger battalions' (or something like that...).

People on this thread have been saying that horse archers were a uniquely successful universal soldier able to carve out huge empires where other army types fail. If that's the case, the fact that they were unable to beat spear-armed infantry runs contrary to what we would expect.

(Incidentally, the fact that the Huns were able to carve out a huge empire under Attila and then promptly lost it after he died is also quite surprising if we assume that the Huns' use of horse archers was the reason for their success -- unless they stopped using them during Attila's reign, which seems unlikely. Perhaps their success was just due to Attila personally, rather than their horse archers.)
 
A nomadic army annihilated sometimes means that there are only old men, women and kids left at home. That's one of the (many) reasons why the nomadic empires are sometimes so short lived.

See: Pechenegs in the 11/12th c., Russia's Black Hats post-Mongols, Avars earlier. The core nation is effectively destroyed when the army is destroyed, allies and subjects split and go their own way, steppe Empire over. But that's a function of demographics, not inefficient soldiery. Possibly what happened to the Huns too - if the losses to the Huns proper (their cavalry that is) were severe enough in Attila's wars, there quite possibly wasn't much of a Hunnic nation left to hold the Hunnic empire together.

So having considered this, I don't think we should be discussing nomadic armies, for that reason. They operate under different constraints. Within those constraints, the horse archer is an excellent choice because it maximises manpower available at widely-flung war theatres and utilises skills available in the population while being able to go on offensive when having an advantage or retreat easily when disadvantaged.

We should really instead be talking about armies of settled societies that had bow-armed, mounted elites. Those societies would never have the majority of all warriors as bow-armed mounted elites, but they definitely used them. After that we should be contrasting them to the societies that chose different approaches. That way we're talking about the tactical possibilities of horse archery and the cultural acceptance/avoidance of the tool rather than how demographics and economics of settled vs. nomadic societies differ.

So more to the point: why did the Romans use horse archers, and why didn't the Germans; why did the Persians, and not the Arabs. Mongol vs. French is a really really impossible comparison to make.
 
I wonder about the command structures present. It seems to me, that to make good use of horse archers you'd need to be able to effectively command them as conditions change. Mongols had very good command, I assume the Romans did too. What about the others?
 
People on this thread have been saying that horse archers were a uniquely successful universal soldier able to carve out huge empires where other army types fail. If that's the case, the fact that they were unable to beat spear-armed infantry runs contrary to what we would expect.
Oh, I see, "people on this thread"...
Then address those people, don't look at me, I mean I don't belong to "those people".
I belong to the people who have been saying that spear-armed infantry is able to beat the horse archers.
(*do I have to repeat that again and again?)

My point here is
- the nomadic Huns were at a disadvantage fighting against the sedentary Germanic tribes - the Huns defeated some Germanic tribe(s) one time, then they defeated them second time, then the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth... we don't know for sure, but a lot. But the Germanic tribes were much more numerous and they could afford to lose that much.
But for the Huns losing an army once (or twice) meant - they just were no more.
It's about population density of the steppes, the nomadic way of life, you know, they were too few.

And I specifically want to...
Oh, oh, stop, stop, it seems I am starting to repeat myself, speaking with you. When conversation with a person starts running in circles - I am leaving it. I don't like the game 'last man standing'... ))
 
So more to the point: why did the Romans use horse archers, and why didn't the Germans; why did the Persians, and not the Arabs. Mongol vs. French is a really really impossible comparison to make.

The Germans didn't fight many lightly-armoured cavalry, the best example seeming to be the Magyars. At the famous battle of Lechfeld, it seems German armour and discipline held out against the horse archers - so, rather than trying to beat the Magyars at their own game they instead posited their own game of melee combat between their troops and the Magyars, and managed to make it stick.
How is somewhat unclear to me, but the short of it seems to be that the Magyars too soon chose to engage directly (i.e. before the Germans were sufficiently disrupted - horse archers / light cavalry disrupt and then smash) leaving them pinned in place for heavier cavalry to hit them.

The final loss seems to have been the tired and demoralized horsemen getting beaten by infantry & heavier cavalry who hadn't been getting tired from 'attack and retreat' tactics (which are presumably quite exhausting).

Given the Hungarians spent the previous 90 years running rings around the Germans, but gave up after this one loss, maybe the real lesson is that horse archers are good BUT very hard to replace, while run-of-the-mill heavy infantry is relatively cheap to replace if you do manage to mess up fighting the horse archers, so you usually get to try again until you get it right. And having learned that lesson, the Germans never bothered trying it for themselves (this being reproduced by the Hungarians themselves, who got smashed by the Mongols, but still got to try again because the Mongols chose or were forced to not make their first victory stick).
 
Oh, I see, "people on this thread"...
Then address those people, don't look at me, I mean I don't belong to "those people".
I belong to the people who have been saying that spear-armed infantry is able to beat the horse archers.
(*do I have to repeat that again and again?)

My point here is
- the nomadic Huns were at a disadvantage fighting against the sedentary Germanic tribes - the Huns defeated some Germanic tribe(s) one time, then they defeated them second time, then the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth... we don't know for sure, but a lot. But the Germanic tribes were much more numerous and they could afford to lose that much.
But for the Huns losing an army once (or twice) meant - they just were no more.
It's about population density of the steppes, the nomadic way of life, you know, they were too few.

And I specifically want to...
Oh, oh, stop, stop, it seems I am starting to repeat myself, speaking with you. When conversation with a person starts running in circles - I am leaving it. I don't like the game 'last man standing'... ))

Ahem:

But we have to admit that the army, the way of warfare, which shattered the world most spectacularly was the steppe nomadic way - the Mongol's way.
And the horse archers (as universal soldiers) were the most important component of this force.

It wasn't the way of warfare where infantry played the most important part (or infantry and shock sedentary cavalry), like Chinese or any other non-nomadic Empire.
I have a hunch that this is for a reason.

I mean may be the nomadic way of warfare with an accent on horse archers (as universal soldiers) is the most effective way (ever) if properly used?

- Let's imagine that in ATL Chengizz Khan was born in China (as a "true ethnic" Chinese) and he became a Chinese emperor.
- Would this result in the same conquests in ATL as the Mongols did in OTL under his command and after his death? Would there be the World Chinese Empire (instead of the World Mongol Empire)?

Well, my (deeply personal) opinion that there wouldn't have been any World Chinese Empire under "Chinese Chengizz Khan" and his successors.
And you already know my answer "why"...
- Because the sedentary Chinese were not that good horse archers (universal soldiers) as the tiny bunch of the Mongol nomadic tribes. That's why! :)
 
Given the Hungarians spent the previous 90 years running rings around the Germans, but gave up after this one loss, maybe the real lesson is that horse archers are good BUT very hard to replace, while run-of-the-mill heavy infantry is relatively cheap to replace if you do manage to mess up fighting the horse archers, so you usually get to try again until you get it right. And having learned that lesson, the Germans never bothered trying it for themselves
I guess, that's it.
From what I know during Napoleonic wars it took two-three years to make a descent (heavy) cavalry man out of a farm boy. I mean the type of cavalry which fights in big tight formations and don't need too much of an individual skill.

But making a proper horse archer... it needs much longer, better be born and raised in steppe and in 16 years you are a nice horse archer. That is long.
 
ok, ok,
Now find me where I said that the spear-armed troops are not able to beat the nomadic horse archers.

There's a red thin line between 'being the most effective way (ever) if properly used' and 'being unable to lose against spear-armed infantry'.

It is a slight difference but it is.
 
We should really instead be talking about armies of settled societies that had bow-armed, mounted elites. Those societies would never have the majority of all warriors as bow-armed mounted elites, but they definitely used them. After that we should be contrasting them to the societies that chose different approaches. That way we're talking about the tactical possibilities of horse archery and the cultural acceptance/avoidance of the tool rather than how demographics and economics of settled vs. nomadic societies differ.

So more to the point: why did the Romans use horse archers, and why didn't the Germans; why did the Persians, and not the Arabs. Mongol vs. French is a really really impossible comparison to make.

Here's an entirely speculative answer that I've just pulled out of my head:

People tend to over-estimate the effectiveness of pre-gunpowder missile weapons. Historically, archery was generally used to soften enemies up for the killer blow, not as a battle-winning technique in itself. To win battles, therefore, you needed to fight hand-to-hand, and, if forced to choose, it would be better to have a melee force without much missile support than a missile force without much melee support. The Romans and Persians could raise a lot of horses, and hence have a wide variety of cavalry; the European and Arabs couldn't, and hence needed to focus more on the core cavalry type, i.e., melee. The Japanese would seem an exception to this, although I think that can be explained by cultural differences: Japanese military culture was very individualistic, and skirmishing tactics allow for a more individualistic fighting style, and because the Japanese didn't fight many foreign wars there was less pressure for them to adapt. During the 16th century, when inter-clan warfare became more intense and the introduction of firearms made Japanese warfare less individualistic, you see Japanese cavalry switching to lances.
 
ok, ok,
Now find me where I said that the spear-armed troops are not able to beat the nomadic horse archers.

There's a red thin line between 'being the most effective way (ever) if properly used' and 'being unable to lose against spear-armed infantry'.

It is a slight difference but it is.

I never claimed you said that horse archers were "unable to lose against spear-armed infantry". But, if they really are "the most effective way (ever) if properly used", then their losing to a different type of army is still unlikely and hence contrary to what we'd expect, even if it's not strictly speaking 100% impossible.
 
I never claimed you said that horse archers were "unable to lose against spear-armed infantry".
You did.
But never mind, from time to time everyone desperately needs a straw-man.


But, if they really are "the most effective way (ever) if properly used", then their losing to a different type of army is still unlikely and hence contrary to what we'd expect, even if it's not strictly speaking 100% impossible.
Pay attention next time. Sometimes 'if' is for a reason in the sentence.

For example, look at those two sentences:
- I am able to beat the boxing world champion.
- I am able to beat the boxing world champion if he is dead drunk (wasted).

See the difference?
 
Last edited:
Not my find but something I turned at the Bow Vs Musket blog.

Baron Marbot's memoirs of encountering the Baskirs, this is from his account of meeting them at Leipzig

With much shouting, these barbarians rapidly surrounded our squadrons, against which they launched thousands of arrows which did very little damage because the Baskirs, being entirely irregulars, do not know how to form up in ranks and they go about in a mob like a flock of sheep, with the result that the riders cannot shoot horizontally without wounding or killing their comrades who are in front of them, but shoot their arrows into the air to describe an arc which will allow them to descend on the enemy. This system does not permit any accurate aim, and nine tenths of the arrows miss their target. Those that do arrive have used up in their ascent the impulse given to them by the bow, and fall only under their own weight, which is very small, so that they do not as a rule inflict any serious injuries. In fact the Baskirs, having no other arms, are undoubtedly the world’s least dangerous troops.

He was not terribly impressed however it is important to remember that as often as not it is the quality of the troops handling thier arms rather than the weapon that is at fault. Also since this was a personal account there may be some exaggeration however he was leading Napoleonic light cavalry which means melee weapons and no armour.

I would say it is part of the evidence that while potentially effective it may not have been effective enough a weapons system (man-horse-bow) that victory or defeat was not more down to generalship on the day and perhaps the qualities of opposing troops.
 
The Magyars are probably a better evaluation of "pure" horse archery in a European context than the Mongols, who as others have noted practiced a more combined arms approach to warfare. The Magyars, in contrast, were almost universally described by the chronicles of the time (both Latin and Byzantine) as fielding armies exclusively of light horsemen. (Infantry were recorded at Lechfeld, but they took no part in the decisive phase of the battle and were probably there only to credibly threaten a siege of Augsburg).

How well did they do? Well, they were good at what we might call "deep raids" - going from Pannonia to Champagne (via Germany) and back again (via Italy) and plundering all the way is a pretty impressive feat, and they managed it repeatedly. Clearly this would not have been possible had the force not been mounted. The bows of the Magyars were certainly noted by their opponents, yet they failed to adopt them. Why?

Firstly, the success of the Magyars was only partially based on horse archery. Arguably more important was their discipline and unit tactics when measured against their enemies. Unlike the Europeans, who tended to gather an army at a mustering point and then march it around as one host, the Magyars traveled widely dispersed over the countryside and only came together on the eve of a battle through the use of messengers and smoke signals. This made them difficult to catch and also caused the Europeans to regularly misinterpret their numbers. They were excellent scouts, and chose their battlefields well. The Byzantines claimed that the Magyars, unlike many raiding peoples, never stopped a battle to plunder an enemy camp, but kept fighting until the foe was completely destroyed. They were adept at playing mind-games too, as Brenta demonstrates; they abjectly pleaded with Berengar to let them leave in peace, lulling him into a sense of security and arrogance even as they planned to encircle and crush his army. Horse archery was a component of their power - their feigned-retreat-and-shoot tactics would not have worked without the bow - but had this been their only asset, it's unlikely they would have made as much of an impression as they did.

As warriors, however, the Magyars were not obviously superior specimens. Whenever the German cavalry actually came to grips with the Magyars, they tended to win, and a Magyar victory wasn't as simple as "just don't let the Germans catch you." For one thing, the terrain was not always conducive to nomadic tactics; additionally, as the Magyars were principally raiders, they were obliged to return with wagons full of their spoils, and the Germans found that the best time to attack them was when they were returning from a raid rather than riding to it. King Henry adapted to Magyar tactics not by taking up the bow or making his cavalry lighter, but by teaching them discipline, preventing them from chasing fruitlessly after feigned retreats and instructing them to charge together without any one cavalryman riding ahead of another. The Germans also adapted to the Magyars strategically by building a system of defense in depth, consisting both of wood-and-earth fortresses from which counterattacks could be launched (the Ungarnwälle) and the organization of local militias which could respond to raiding parties. It was these militias that eventually caused the gravest defeat the Magyars ever faced: Otto's army succeeded only in dispersing the Magyars at Lechfeld, it was the Bavarian local forces who destroyed them in detail as the scattered Magyar bands attempted to retreat over swollen rivers and fords throughout the country. By the mid-10th century, the Germans were regularly beating the Magyars in the field and were even raiding Magyar territory in retaliation, even though their equipment had hardly changed in the last century.

The Magyar horse archer was good for a certain kind of warfare, the "deep raid" that avoided fortified places and struck at the soft underbelly of distant kingdoms. Ottonian warfare, however, was based around the siege - most battles of this period in central/western Europe took place in the context of a siege or an attempt to relieve a siege. Besieging required the fielding of large armies with many infantrymen, and prioritized logistics and staying power over speed and surprise. The Magyars were frankly rubbish at sieges and generally followed the path of least resistance; despite having practically free reign in northern Italy, they only ever succeeded in sacking one city. The Magyar horse archer, unlike the German miles, was unsuited for the kind of warfare that the Germans and other Latin-Europeans generally engaged in. Even if you ignore the cultural factors - which you probably shouldn't - this is sufficient to explain why horse archers were not adopted by the Germans and their neighbors even though the Magyars did humiliate them on several occasions in the late 9th/early 10th centuries. The horse archer "weapon system" was not strictly better than what the Germans had, and Magyar successes had more to do with tactics and stratagems that could be adapted to and effectively opposed without any shift in equipment.

The Magyars themselves, having been bested, ended up settling down and within two centuries or so were fielding pretty much the same armies as their Latin neighbors - and defended against the Mongols at Mohi with a thoroughly "European" army.
 
Last edited:
Top