Why Did Western Europe not use Horse Archery?

See, the thing about a mounted archer (or a mounted anything), is that an expensive (even that is debatable: most of the nomad population would own a horse and a bow just as part of their lifestyle) horseman who dismounts to fight on foot now and here, is much better than three cheaper infantrymen three hundred kilometres away. Tactically there are measures you can take against horse archers (same as against anything, really, nothing is the end-all of warfare), but strategically the horse archer is a fearsome and versatile tool and I'm surprised people keep repeating that it's easy to negate those advantages: it isn't.

Strategically couldn't a horse archer's role in skirmishing and raiding be filled by any other light cavalry though? If the goal is to go around looting and pillaging you're not going to want to fight a drawn out battle of attrition that horse archers excel at, and you'd only get a marginal improvement in effectiveness over other types of light cavalry which are cheaper and easier to train.

That's actually what they call an 'internet meme'.
There's no prove whatsoever for that in any serious academic researches.

Is it really though? From a materials science perspective glue should be susceptible to moisture, and Western Europe is rather wet and drizzly. Sure it doesn't mean that composite bows will decompose instantly, but there would be pressure against the locals utilizing them extensively. Why should Robin go to the time, trouble, and expense of making a fancy composite bow that will probably break in a year or two when he can just whittle down a stick and get something that isn't much worse?
 
See, the thing about a mounted archer (or a mounted anything), is that an expensive (even that is debatable: most of the nomad population would own a horse and a bow just as part of their lifestyle) horseman who dismounts to fight on foot now and here, is much better than three cheaper infantrymen three hundred kilometres away. Tactically there are measures you can take against horse archers (same as against anything, really, nothing is the end-all of warfare), but strategically the horse archer is a fearsome and versatile tool and I'm surprised people keep repeating that it's easy to negate those advantages: it isn't.

Also, I've seen three separate claims in this thread that Batu suffered grevious casualties at Mohi and that the Hungarians were doing well. I know the English wiki says so, but what primary source is it relying on? I know that wiki policy is to rely on secondary sources for citations but I mean, I don't really care about those either. I need an actual period source with all these incredible details. I can't even find one. Seems like a bunch of just-so stories without citations with details that couldn't possibly be known, really. The first thing that Batu did after the aforementioned grievous casualties was take and burn the Hungarian capital, and after that dispersed the army to raid the country, hardly the actions of someone in a precarious position.

Then he forced the Danube later that year. I mean, really.

Suffering grievous casualties doesn't necessarily preclude undertaking further actions shortly after the battle. Napoleon's grande armee suffered c. 20% casualties at Borodino, but that didn't stop him sacking Moscow shortly afterwards. Nor, for that matter, did the Russians' 30% casualties cause their army to collapse. Again, the British at New Orleans suffered 15% casualties, but that didn't stop them sailing along the coast to Alabama and attacking towns there, which they were still doing when news of the peace treaty arrived. The idea that Batu could go around ravaging Hungary after suffering heavy casualties isn't implausible, especially as the Hungarian army had suffered even worse.
 
Is it really though? From a materials science perspective glue should be susceptible to moisture, and Western Europe is rather wet and drizzly.
Well, if you make it a point to expose your composite bow every time when it is raining and/or wet and hide it instantly somewhere in wet bushes when the weather is dry and sunny... then your composite bow will surely reward your effort - it will decompose finally.
But being kept in an ordinary usual leather waterproof bow-case... that won't.

Sure it doesn't mean that composite bows will decompose instantly, but there would be pressure against the locals utilizing them extensively. Why should Robin go to the time, trouble, and expense of making a fancy composite bow that will probably break in a year or two when he can just whittle down a stick and get something that isn't much worse?
I assure you that making a good old long-bow is somewhat harder and longer process, but right, Robin doesn't need a composite bow. Because he is not mounted.
But for the horse archer the size does matter, meaning the smaller the better.
If there had been (true) mounted archers in Europe they'd have been hard pressed to use the composite bows (by Darwinian law of survival of the fittest).
 
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See, the thing about a mounted archer (or a mounted anything), is that an expensive (even that is debatable: most of the nomad population would own a horse and a bow just as part of their lifestyle) horseman who dismounts to fight on foot now and here, is much better than three cheaper infantrymen three hundred kilometres away. Tactically there are measures you can take against horse archers (same as against anything, really, nothing is the end-all of warfare), but strategically the horse archer is a fearsome and versatile tool and I'm surprised people keep repeating that it's easy to negate those advantages: it isn't.

There is difference between a standard horse archer (just out of my memories, vastly used by hungarian, austrian, bohemian and polish armies until about the end of the 16.century - at least in the case of Hungary), the mongolian horse archer (whom i dont like to call horse archers, because this leads to misconceptions, they were more like "like knights or samurai trained in their whole life for combat with a little bit less armor and excellent mounted bow training professional warriors") and the "internet horse archer", the mythical creature and never existed.1

Neither was really fearsome - that was the heavy shock cavalry! :)

And they were not really versatile either, since usually they lacked the armor, tended to be outranged by leg bowmen (crossbowmen in the siege of Esztegrom outranged the mongolian dismounted archers - okay, it was a siege, hilltop, walls, whatever, but still, but again, at the Battle of Muhi crossbowmen in open field outranged them so...) and against well armored (or shielded) foe they simply lacked the punch (everyone lacked the punch except crossbowmen and firearms.)

I would join the "not the weapons, but the men" flock in case of the mongolians: tactical, operational, command and control and discipline superiority over the western armies. Once they started to lose these, they got degraded to the "raider" category.


Also, I've seen three separate claims in this thread that Batu suffered grevious casualties at Mohi and that the Hungarians were doing well. I know the English wiki says so, but what primary source is it relying on? I know that wiki policy is to rely on secondary sources for citations but I mean, I don't really care about those either. I need an actual period source with all these incredible details. I can't even find one. Seems like a bunch of just-so stories without citations with details that couldn't possibly be known, really. The first thing that Batu did after the aforementioned grievous casualties was take and burn the Hungarian capital, and after that dispersed the army to raid the country, hardly the actions of someone in a precarious position.

Then he forced the Danube later that year. I mean, really.

There are very few primary sources about the battle and the immediate aftermath (Rogerius, an another dude whom name i forgot and some of the letters of Béla) and they are full of shit.
If you are cross-examine them with secondary sources and the events happened around the time, things dont check out.

For the girevous casualities: well, of course we dont have the number and pretty much no one (important) survived the action from the hungarian part, but the battle raged for about a night (and in the next morning) at the bridge and the detached forces returned to the camp victorious (and started to party a little). This, some non-western sources mentioning high casualities and the fact, that Subotai changed plans for the battle overnight indicating heavy casualities, most likely among the press-ganged auxiliary forces but at least one high-ranked mongolian lieutant (and his unit) mentioned by name as fallen, so possibly among the core mongolian too.
Next morning fightings were also heavy and after the flank attack, the endgame at the camp lasted till nightfall, but that was mostly mop up.
So, again, grievous? We dont know. But heavy for sure.
But it did not matter at the end, because after two failed tricks, Subotai could had make a third and a fourth - both succesful.
(Yes, im imoressed with him.)

And Batu did not took the haungarian capital - at that time there were two: Székesfehérvár (failed siege) and Esztergom (city taken and plundered, castle held). They did not forced the Danube, the river frozen solid and they crossed it unopposed (and after it, they captured the city of Esztergom, plunder etc.)

Oh, and while the hungarian army pretty much destroyed (despite the really grievous casualities, not really), the mongolian army did not. They raided their path - and they excelled at it -, but the armies never dispersed. They were not fools.
 
If there had been (true) mounted archers in Europe they'd have been hard pressed to use the composite bows (by Darwinian law of survival of the fittest).

Again, at least hungarian horse archers used composite bows. (At the time of the mongolian invasion, for sure, but i dont realyl know, how longafter that.
 
I would join the "not the weapons, but the men" flock in case of the mongolians: tactical, operational, command and control and discipline superiority over the western armies. Once they started to lose these, they got degraded to the "raider" category.

Plus, there were lots of horse-archer-based steppe hordes, none of which were anywhere near as successful as the Mongols.
 
Plus, there were lots of horse-archer-based steppe hordes, none of which were anywhere near as successful as the Mongols.

The Huns.
And they are similar to the mongols: not "only" horse archers, extensive use of "allies", bloody victory and after that "whooooop" - disappearing from the stage of europe.

We were not that succesful, but at least hey, we are still here!
(And the cumans too, for a lesser and well, debatable extent.)
 
Again, at least hungarian horse archers used composite bows. (At the time of the mongolian invasion, for sure, but i dont realyl know, how longafter that.
The point is taken.
But then you should mention the Huns, the Avars, the Bulgars and the Cumans.
Hell, they were Europeans... from a geographical point of view.
 
After christianity and westernization - i should have added.
Oh, I see, the point's taken again.

You see, for me (being non-European) it's sometimes somewhat allusive what you guys mean when you say 'European'...

Do the Sarmatians, Alans, Scythians count as Europeans?
 
See, the thing about a mounted archer (or a mounted anything), is that an expensive (even that is debatable: most of the nomad population would own a horse and a bow just as part of their lifestyle) horseman who dismounts to fight on foot now and here, is much better than three cheaper infantrymen three hundred kilometres away. Tactically there are measures you can take against horse archers (same as against anything, really, nothing is the end-all of warfare), but strategically the horse archer is a fearsome and versatile tool and I'm surprised people keep repeating that it's easy to negate those advantages: it isn't.
I'd say the real way to stop horse archers is to dig in at whatever you really need. Horse archers are excellent at any fight that isn't a set-piece battle or a siege, especially in more open terrain (though other light cavalry is also pretty good). Horse archers are still good at set-piece battles, although it's risky because they can get confused, make mistakes, get pinned against some obstacle, etcetera (as evidenced by the historical record showing plenty of successes and losses for horse archers in field battles). Horse archers are not very special at sieges, being archers who can travel a bit faster (and a few days is very little difference in sieges taking months to years) - but if you really want to siege, you probably deploy your infantry to siege and let the horse archers raid/forage around (which, as I mentioned, they ARE good at, and certainly much better than infantry).

It probably doesn't help that most 'pure' horse archery armies are also much less organized, in the sense of wanting to hang out for weeks or months waiting for a fortification to fall while they could be out there taking actual loot. Once armies organise, they get all the extra branches and the traditional horse archers are reverted to skirmishers, raiders and scouts.

Also, I've seen three separate claims in this thread that Batu suffered grevious casualties at Mohi and that the Hungarians were doing well. I know the English wiki says so, but what primary source is it relying on? I know that wiki policy is to rely on secondary sources for citations but I mean, I don't really care about those either. I need an actual period source with all these incredible details. I can't even find one. Seems like a bunch of just-so stories without citations with details that couldn't possibly be known, really. The first thing that Batu did after the aforementioned grievous casualties was take and burn the Hungarian capital, and after that dispersed the army to raid the country, hardly the actions of someone in a precarious position.

Then he forced the Danube later that year. I mean, really.
He dispersed the army to raid the country, maybe, but what does that prove? That he didn't see an organised opposition which seems true, the Hungarians were far more smashed at Mohi than the Mongols. Even so, he withdrew pretty soon, and according to various timelines far before he could have known about the death of the great Khan. And the Hungarians ended up in possession of their country again. The rest is indeed a bit more derived logic, which I can't judge accurately either.
 
Oh, I see, the point's taken again.

You see, for me (being non-European) it's sometimes somewhat allusive what you guys mean when you say 'European'...

Do the Sarmatians, Alans, Scythians count as Europeans?

Depends on time and circumstances, but in this case, to simplify things the rule of thumb should be: christian (preferable catholic, but orthodox was still viewed as european, albeit a heretic one :) )
 
Strategically couldn't a horse archer's role in skirmishing and raiding be filled by any other light cavalry though? If the goal is to go around looting and pillaging you're not going to want to fight a drawn out battle of attrition that horse archers excel at, and you'd only get a marginal improvement in effectiveness over other types of light cavalry which are cheaper and easier to train.

Is it really though? From a materials science perspective glue should be susceptible to moisture, and Western Europe is rather wet and drizzly. Sure it doesn't mean that composite bows will decompose instantly, but there would be pressure against the locals utilizing them extensively. Why should Robin go to the time, trouble, and expense of making a fancy composite bow that will probably break in a year or two when he can just whittle down a stick and get something that isn't much worse?
It should be noted that Roman archers almost exclusively made use of composite bows in all their theaters (including of course the ever wet isles of Britain), at least up until they started deploying weapons like crossbows & manuballistae, which also had problems with damp climates anyways. Same with the Byzantines who kept up the Roman tradition of horse archers while it lapsed post WRE.

But that said, the Strategikon also discusses how dampness is an issue, and I'm willing to think Maurice wasn't just memeing.
 
But that said, the Strategikon also discusses how dampness is an issue, and I'm willing to think Maurice wasn't just memeing.
Care to quote?

Depends on time and circumstances, but in this case, to simplify things the rule of thumb should be: christian (preferable catholic, but orthodox was still viewed as european, albeit a heretic one :) )
ok, I got it, I got it - a specific rule of thumb for any specific period of time.
But I guess, there were always the Europeans which were more European than the other Europeans.
And (I guess here again) during our period the Hungarians were those 'less European than the others": the Europeans of the non-European origin and using peculiar "not too European" light cavalry - mounted archers with composite bows.
I hope we might agree on that...

I would join the "not the weapons, but the men" flock in case of the mongolians: tactical, operational, command and control and discipline superiority over the western armies.
But we have to admit that the army, the way of warfare, which shattered the world most spectacularly was the steppe nomadic way - the Mongol's way.
And the horse archers (as universal soldiers) were the most important component of this force.

It wasn't the way of warfare where infantry played the most important part (or infantry and shock sedentary cavalry), like Chinese or any other non-nomadic Empire.
I have a hunch that this is for a reason.

I mean may be the nomadic way of warfare with an accent on horse archers (as universal soldiers) is the most effective way (ever) if properly used?

- Let's imagine that in ATL Chengizz Khan was born in China (as a "true ethnic" Chinese) and he became a Chinese emperor.
- Would this result in the same conquests in ATL as the Mongols did in OTL under his command and after his death? Would there be the World Chinese Empire (instead of the World Mongol Empire)?

Well, my (deeply personal) opinion that there wouldn't have been any World Chinese Empire under "Chinese Chengizz Khan" and his successors.
And you already know my answer "why"...
- Because the sedentary Chinese were not that good horse archers (universal soldiers) as the tiny bunch of the Mongol nomadic tribes. That's why! :)
 
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Care to quote?

"They should also be provided with an extra-large cloak or hooded mantle of felt with broad sleeves to wear, large enough to wear over their armament, including the coat of mail and the bow. Then in case it should rain or be damp from the dew, by wearing this garment over the coat of mail and the bow they may protect their armament and still not find it awkward to use the bow or the lance."
 
Plus, there were lots of horse-archer-based steppe hordes, none of which were anywhere near as successful as the Mongols.

I know that we're discussing Europe here, and from a purely west-of-Elbe standpoint that may well be believable, but in fact the combination of horse+bow is remarkably, consistently successful all the way from the early iron age and into the 18th c.

There were no great infantry-based Empires on the steppe since the dawn of the horseman; all the peoples bordering the region adapted to the mounted archer, not the other way around. The mounted archer army could maintain itself on the cheap and remain a potent combat force. Any different style of soldier needed a lot more planning, supplies, political will and numbers just to be able to conduct serious campaigns in nomad/semi-nomad lands.

It's probably easier to name all the tribes that had an impressive continental Empire that threatened settled lands than anything in reverse, and that basically remained true until the Russians and the Qing got their stuff together at least (and even then, both had the universal cavalry soldier as a large part of their usual armed forces).

I mean it can seem true that the more economically advanced a society is the less likely it is to need a universal soldier as the bulk of its forces, but of course Europe's own experience (moving towards a universal infantryman as logistics and muskets got better) kind of questions that notion too.

The horse archer is a universal soldier that's appropriate for small but warlike nations with low population densities, and the societies that face these people. The musketman is a universal soldier that's appropriate for populous societies of people with no particular tradition of military training but with educated officers and mass produced weapons. There are some periods of history where a universal soldier isn't the best solution, but they're probably, on the balance, shorter than the reverse.
 
Western European warfare was primarily based around siege warfare. While on the Steppes there were very few actual fortified castles and the like, horse archers became necessary as most of the fighting was done on the field between armies - mobility was key, and the horses superior. In Western Europe, the vast majority of fighting was done at sieges. In a siege, the advantage to mobility you have is completely lost, and you would need to dismount anyway to use siege equipment. The advantage would be gone, and all horses would do would stretch your supply lines even thinner, as you'd have to feed this army of horses for months on end as sieges wore on.

Western European warfare and Steppe warfare was fundamentally different - traditional Western European armies and formations would be outclassed fighting on the Steppes, where mobility was key and troops needed to travel light, while armies dominated by mounted archers as per steppe nomads would simply not work in terms of Western European warfare. The reason the Mongol conquests managed to get so far into Europe was because the Mongols largely realized this and were able to adapt to siege warfare quickly, while still retaining their advantage in the field.
 
Plus, there were lots of horse-archer-based steppe hordes, none of which were anywhere near as successful as the Mongols.
Europe just happened to be far from the centers of the empire-building processes of the horse-archer-based steppe hordes.
But people tend to forget the Huns.
The actual size of their Empire is uncertain, but my guess it was somewhere in between the territories marked on the following maps:
Huns_empire.png


618px-Huns450.png


1024px-450_roman-hunnic-empire_1764x1116.jpg


The first time the Western Europe got acquainted with horse archers was somewhere about 600 BC. And I mean deep Europe like Southern France - the Scythian artifacts especially arrowheads together with the burned settlements are found even there.
 
Much of this can be chalked down to culture from my view.

The Arabs did not pursue extensive horse archery despite exceedingly large knowledge of the insides of both Turkish, Hunnic, Byzantine and Sassanid horse archery. We see that in the Umayyad caliphate, the armies of Arabs relied on light to medium infantry, usually armed with bows and melee cavalry. This further run counters to the fact that horse archery would've been useful to the armies of the Umayyad as seen during the Abbasid period.

The reasons for this, must be chalked down to a cultural aversion to such acts and a cultural attachment to a specific style of warfare. For a further example, we see the armies of the Abbasid and Fatimid only use extensive horse archery with Turkish Mamluks, who had a cultural affinity for such a style of war. All that can be said is culture, the Arab culture did not practice extensive horse archery in Arabia as they did not hunt from horse top, thus they favored warfare which befit their particular culture and developments.

The same could and should be said for West Europe. A people do not simply adopt every style of war because it benefits them. Aztecs for example possessed ways to better wage war against the Spanish than to directly confront them, however their culture demanded they gain victory honorably, thus the results.
 
I know that we're discussing Europe here, and from a purely west-of-Elbe standpoint that may well be believable, but in fact the combination of horse+bow is remarkably, consistently successful all the way from the early iron age and into the 18th c.

There were no great infantry-based Empires on the steppe since the dawn of the horseman; all the peoples bordering the region adapted to the mounted archer, not the other way around. The mounted archer army could maintain itself on the cheap and remain a potent combat force. Any different style of soldier needed a lot more planning, supplies, political will and numbers just to be able to conduct serious campaigns in nomad/semi-nomad lands.

And there were no horse-archer-based armies of Europe or China during this period. Horse archery was remarkably, consistently successful when fighting in a particular type of terrain, less so in other types of terrain.
 
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