Why did the Taiwanese Aborigines never Sinicize?

[kasumigenx]

It seems that Taiwan was isolated from the Malay world as well.

 

[galanx]

I can't fathom why (grins in Traditional Chinese). However, I'd guess the later Qing had already somewhat changed that view.

Right to the end when they surrendered it to Japan they regarded it as pretty useless.They only took it in the first place to keep pirates- Japanese, rebels and foreign bandits i.e. Westerners- out. Even then they only claimed the western plains- they preferred to leave the interior mountains and east coast to be slowly 'cooked' (sinicized) and only the threat of Japanese occupation and Western demands they take responsibility for the actions of the aborigines on the east coast (cough) headhunting shipwreck survivors (cough) made them extend control to the whole island.

But it's not like you needed to send thousands of Chinese over multiple decades, in theory if even a couple hundred families settled the plains and started farming using their more advanced technology and practices and grew in size and eventually mixed with the locals that could allowed for higher populations and maybe more contact initiated by the Taiwanese without outright replacement by the Han settlers.

Maybe- but the attitude toward a few hundred settlers would probably hostile at worst, indifferent at best. Like the effect the Vinlanders had?

 

[Deleted member 166308]

Maybe- but the attitude toward a few hundred settlers would probably hostile at worst, indifferent at best. Like the effect the Vinlanders had?

In order to get the aborigines to be interested in Chinese culture and technology, you would have to see them organize into states before hand, which might possibly be triggered by trade with Luzon. After all, if they got iron from the Philippines, then why not statebuilding? And the formation of states on Taiwan might make the Chinese interested, for tribute purposes.
I couldn't find any sources for the existence of city states on the northern coast of Luzon, so in order for what was said above to work, you would need a POD in the Philippines that leads to the development of city-states on northern Luzon.

 

[kasumigenx]

In order to get the aborigines to be interested in Chinese culture and technology, you would have to see them organize into states before hand, which might possibly be triggered by trade with Luzon. After all, if they got iron from the Philippines, then why not statebuilding? And the formation of states on Taiwan might make the Chinese interested, for tribute purposes.
I couldn't find any sources for the existence of city states on the northern coast of Luzon, so in order for what was said above to work, you would need a POD in the Philippines that leads to the development of city-states on northern Luzon.

Luzon would rather trade with Sumatera, Java, Borneo, Japan, Champa, or China.

 

[Deleted member 166308]

Luzon would rather trade with Sumatera, Java, Borneo, Japan, Champa, or China.

But what about the north coast Luzonese? The northern half of Luzon never seems to have developed any kind of statebuilding civilization OTL, and they do seem to have traded with the Taiwanese. If the northern Luzonese had begun forming city-states, why couldn't they have spread state building to Taiwan?

 

[kasumigenx]

But what about the north coast Luzonese? The northern half of Luzon never seems to have developed any kind of statebuilding civilization OTL, and they do seem to have traded with the Taiwanese. If the northern Luzonese had begun forming city-states, why couldn't they have spread state building to Taiwan?

It is only the Ivatans that traded with them.

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[Nyegosh]

It's not just the Taiwanese aboriginals; what is now southern China has plenty of small ethnic groups such as the Hmong who lived in decentralized/tribal societies and did not form states in the sense of their northern neighbors right into the days of Chinese conquest and settlement in the 17th century.

I don't know for sure why this is the case, but my suspicion is that heavily mountainous terrain combined with dense forests prevents the sort of centralization of power that occurred in the Yellow River valley IOTL.

Forests can always be cleared, it's the mountains. If you look at the area, it's all small flat valleys surrounded by absurdly steep mountains. The valleys were cleared, but there was never an area big enough to act as a "focal point," unlike Japan or Korea, which area also mountainous, but are more traversable.

Remember, tribes transform into small city-states first (see: ancient Greece) then slowly coalesce into more national states or empires.

Philippines started the first transformation, with small city-states, but this was never completed due to the arrival and subjugation at the hands of the Spanish. Taiwan simply doesn't have the geographic capabilities to even start it.

 

[Gloss]

Forests can always be cleared, it's the mountains. If you look at the area, it's all small flat valleys surrounded by absurdly steep mountains. The valleys were cleared, but there was never an area big enough to act as a "focal point," unlike Japan or Korea, which area also mountainous, but are more traversable

Most of the population would live on the western plains though:

 

[Nyegosh]

Could be that there needs to be some sort of "external pressure" to make the cultures want to enter the Chinese sphere. I think Korea sinicized due to these reasons (being immediately south of the Jurchens)

 

[Gloss]

Could be that there needs to be some sort of "external pressure" to make the cultures want to enter the Chinese sphere. I think Korea sinicized due to these reasons (being immediately south of the Jurchens)

Japan was pretty isolated too.

 

[Nyegosh]

Well, if I remember, Japan got sinicized by the Chinese visiting them first...

Could be, since Taiwan is small, and the strait is rather dangerous, the Chinese simply dismissed them. And the native Taiwanese simply didn't care

 

[kasumigenx]

Forests can always be cleared, it's the mountains. If you look at the area, it's all small flat valleys surrounded by absurdly steep mountains. The valleys were cleared, but there was never an area big enough to act as a "focal point," unlike Japan or Korea, which area also mountainous, but are more traversable.

Remember, tribes transform into small city-states first (see: ancient Greece) then slowly coalesce into more national states or empires.

Philippines started the first transformation, with small city-states, but this was never completed due to the arrival and subjugation at the hands of the Spanish. Taiwan simply doesn't have the geographic capabilities to even start it.

The Bruneians were the first ones who did it.

 

[Sarthak]

I am just going to say that Sino-Taiwanese trade has been recorded since the Wu Dynasty. Whole obviously the Chinese ignored the island considering it insignificant, they did know about the island at least and traded with it. The Song and Tang also have records of trading with the aborigines of the island for their naval expeditions against the local pirates.

 

[mosodake]

If I'm not mistaken, there's a member on here who's married to one of the aboriginal Taiwanese community... I cannot think of his name...

You're thinking of Galanx
I am of Taiwanese descent with a good amount of aboriginal ancestry though none of it recent and only from tribes that have long been assimilated.

The Taiwanese aborigines had agriculture, iron-working, and seafaring technology fully capable of crossing the Taiwan Strait. Yet for some reason, they never sinicized, as Japan, Korea, and Ryukyu did. They never started building states and kingdoms of their own until the 17th century. They never adopted the Chinese script. And none of the nations of Taiwan ever entered into a tributary relationship with China. I don't know the reason for this. Was it that the soils of Taiwan were too poor to support the existence of kingdoms? Were the Straits of Taiwan more treacherous and stormy than I thought they were, preventing a regular trade connection? Or was it that the Taiwanese had nothing good worth trading for?

I mean, the majority did sinicize in the 18th century. I, and the majority of Taiwan's Han population, am proof of this. While population density on Taiwan was never high (obviously until mass Han migration), the lowland plains had a decent number of people. These tribes intermarried with Chinese settlers but some were still distinct enough to have been recorded in Japanese censuses as "cooked," i.e. sinicized, aborigines. Prejudice towards aborigines from the Han meant that many aboriginal parents didn't tell their children about their heritage. The Austronesian contribution to modern Taiwanese culture is difficult to identify but is apparent in some vocabulary, food, and possibly religious practices.

I am just going to say that Sino-Taiwanese trade has been recorded since the Wu Dynasty. Whole obviously the Chinese ignored the island considering it insignificant, they did know about the island at least and traded with it. The Song and Tang also have records of trading with the aborigines of the island for their naval expeditions against the local pirates.

IIRC, during the Neolithic, Taiwanese jade was traded around Southeast Asia as far as modern-day Thailand. Prevailing winds may have meant it was easier to sail south than west.