Why did the Japanese try to invade China in 1592?

[leopard9]

The Imjin Invasions were two invasion attempts launched by the Japanese to conquer Joeson Korea and Ming China in 1592 and 1596. The Japanese got no further than parts of the Korean peninsula before they were stymied by combined Chinese and Korean forces and forced to retreat.

My question is, what the hell were they thinking? How did they think they could conquer and HOLD Korea and China?

 

[KingOnTheEdge]

If I'm thinking of the right time period, they had conquered almost all of korea and were stopped largely by Admiral Yi cutting their reinforcements, no?

But idk anything about ming china so idk

 

[Monter]

The only who really knew was Hideyoshi and he's well... dead. There are several theories, from him inheriting Nobunaga's plan, to bolstering his legitimacy, to just finding something for the warriors to do in a now unified Japan.
Of course there are some who say he was going a bit nutty, nutty during the 1590s so that could explain part but not all.

If I'm thinking of the right time period, they had conquered almost all of korea and were stopped largely by Admiral Yi cutting their reinforcements, no?

But idk anything about ming china so idk

No, they controlled what was effectively a strip from Pusan to Hanseong to Pyongyang, much of Korea was outside of Japanese control and Admiral Yi wasn't the only guy fighting, he had other admirals that eventually got overshadowed, as well the righteous armies in land that made the already strained Japanese supply lines in total disarray.

 

[Black Prince of Britannia]

You gotta understand that Toyotomi Hideyoshi was an uneducated peasant with political acumen, while that gave him a huge advantage in an environment he was familiar in (i.e. Sengoku Japan), he had almost no knowledge of the scope of China, as did much of his close advisers. This combined with an overwhelming need to satisfy the bickering daimyos under his rule (by transferring internal conflicts externally), and reduce the military capacities of many dissatisfied vassals such as Tokugawa Ieyasu (future Shogun).

But another part of this is the sheer amount of self-confidence from the Japanese military at the time, many of them truly believed in their nicknames like, "First Swordsmen" or "Supreme Strategist", "Dragon of the North" etc... They firmly believed in their military abilities, which judging from their first phase of war against the unprepared and under-armed Koreans, were true in some aspects.

Even against the Ming, Japan was actually a comparable military force, with a much higher rate of firearm adaption, native firearm industry (unlike the Ming, who relied on the Portuguese and Dutch), as well as innovative strategies in using them

The Ming army of the 1590s still relied on mixed-arms formation devised by Qi Jiguang some 5 decades ago, which emphasized lancers, pikemen, shield/brawlers in front and sides while a small amount of arquebusiers fire, abandoning the earlier quasi-square volley of the blunderbusses in the 15th century due to declining qualities and reliability of Ming firearms. Ming soldiers rarely liked to use firearms due to fear of them exploding in their hands.

The Japanese on the otherhand, by the 1570s, had demonstrated a considerable of arquebus workmanship that could support a large, well-trained firearm unit, such as in the Battle of Nagashino, where Oda arquebusiers formed a formation which defeated a massed cavalry charge by providing continuous volleys. Do note that Hideyoshi was originally a commander under the Oda clan, and he himself especially advocated the widespread adoption of firearms.

So call it Hideyoshi a megalomaniac, or a visionary, but at least to him in the 1590s, it made sense that he could at least first conquer Korea before the Ming could retaliate, and use the added manpower/food supply in Korea to launch raids into Ryukyu, Taiwan etc... before landing onto the mainland.

 

[Joseph890]

I personally believe that Hideyoshi was trying to find a way to deal with the excess supply of soldiers. Not to mention he was trying to bolster his legitimacy in my opinion by conquering new land that he could give out to either his supporters to make them stronger or members of the nobility who could be swayed to support him.

 

[A Most Sovereign Lady]

Wars are over, time to find a new one, gives the soldiery something to do other than plotting to overthrow you to resume the infighting.

 

[BBadolato]

The Imjin Invasions were two invasion attempts launched by the Japanese to conquer Joeson Korea and Ming China in 1592 and 1596. The Japanese got no further than parts of the Korean peninsula before they were stymied by combined Chinese and Korean forces and forced to retreat.

My question is, what the hell were they thinking? How did they think they could conquer and HOLD Korea and China?

It's hard to say, there are many theories that might not any sense. Following Nobunaga's dream could be more a myth than anything, Nobunaga had a reputation for being iconoclastic, that planning to invade China could very well be a myth. Using as a way to deal with excess troops also does not make sense as most of the soldiers came from the lords who would end up fighting on the Toyotomi's side against the Tokugawa and their allies. For Hideyoshi, it may have been pure hubris or some insane scheme to get legitimacy as he was a peasant who could not become Shogun.

You gotta understand that Toyotomi Hideyoshi was an uneducated peasant with political acumen, while that gave him a huge advantage in an environment he was familiar in (i.e. Sengoku Japan), he had almost no knowledge of the scope of China, as did much of his close advisers. This combined with an overwhelming need to satisfy the bickering daimyos under his rule (by transferring internal conflicts externally), and reduce the military capacities of many dissatisfied vassals such as Tokugawa Ieyasu (future Shogun).

The problem the whole the Imjin was used to help with potential threats is that it does not add up. Most of the lords that fought with Hideyoshi's army where the ones who would support his son Hideyori in the Western army. Ieyasu was in Kanto to the east and basically did nothing the whole war.

But another part of this is the sheer amount of self-confidence from the Japanese military at the time, many of them truly believed in their nicknames like, "First Swordsmen" or "Supreme Strategist", "Dragon of the North" etc... They firmly believed in their military abilities, which judging from their first phase of war against the unprepared and under-armed Koreans, were true in some aspects.

I do not know where you are getting this from, mind you none of those nicknames exist, and were usually given to them for both good and bad. The only thing the Japanese had over the Ming and Korean was that they sent men and commanders tested by at times near-constant warfare.

The Ming army of the 1590s still relied on mixed-arms formation devised by Qi Jiguang some 5 decades ago, which emphasized lancers, pikemen, shield/brawlers in front and sides while a small amount of arquebusiers fire, abandoning the earlier quasi-square volley of the blunderbusses in the 15th century due to declining qualities and reliability of Ming firearms. Ming soldiers rarely liked to use firearms due to fear of them exploding in their hands.

The Japanese on the otherhand, by the 1570s, had demonstrated a considerable of arquebus workmanship that could support a large, well-trained firearm unit, such as in the Battle of Nagashino, where Oda arquebusiers formed a formation which defeated a massed cavalry charge by providing continuous volleys. Do note that Hideyoshi was originally a commander under the Oda clan, and he himself especially advocated the widespread adoption of firearms.

Sengoku military tactics were not advanced at all and basically dated back to the Tang dynasty with innovation here and there. As for firearms, you putting Nagashino, the Oda and the Takeda on too much of a pedestal. The Japanese had little in the way good cavalry that could actually be used as more than transport, the Takeda only had one good unit of cavalry from Kanto by Nagashino, the Oda did not really use the arquebus in any innovative ways. Volly fire was something even the Ming practiced, but it was the Oda that used field fortifications and spearmen to defend them. So it is not as if Ming tactics were somehow outdated it's just that the Ming dynasty of this period was brought low by both bad councilors and emperors that refused to govern in their later years, a properly run Ming dynasty would be a nightmare.

 

[yoyo]

The Ming army of the 1590s still relied on mixed-arms formation devised by Qi Jiguang some 5 decades ago, which emphasized lancers, pikemen, shield/brawlers in front and sides while a small amount of arquebusiers fire, abandoning the earlier quasi-square volley of the blunderbusses in the 15th century due to declining qualities and reliability of Ming firearms. Ming soldiers rarely liked to use firearms due to fear of them exploding in their hands.

Wdym? Are you implying that matchlocks were invented in china? I thought they were invented somewhere in euro? Or am I misreading?

 

[Black Prince of Britannia]

Wdym? Are you implying that matchlocks were invented in china? I thought they were invented somewhere in euro? Or am I misreading?

No I did not say that the matchlocks were invented in China, the early firearms the Ming used developed "natively" did not possess any trigger or modern firing mechanisms before contact with the Dutch and Portuguese. "Blunderbuss", is just the "official" translation of the word 铳, which generally referred to Chinese firearms of the period.

The problem the whole the Imjin was used to help with potential threats is that it does not add up. Most of the lords that fought with Hideyoshi's army where the ones who would support his son Hideyori in the Western army. Ieyasu was in Kanto to the east and basically did nothing the whole war.

I don't want to side track this thread to an in-depth discussion of the Momoyama period, but dividing lord simply based on Western and Eastern allegiance at Sekigahara doesn't indicate their loyalty to the Toyotomi clan, you'd probably know that Sekigahara was more of a battle over Ishida's dominance in the Toyotomi hierarchy rather than the Tokugawa forces destroying the Toyotomi government (that was an unintentional consequence to many Toyotomi loyalists). And like you said yourself, it's potential threats, it's who Hideyoshi thought could deserve a weakening, so while damiyos like Kato and Konishi were out of the questions, reluctant damiyos who surrendered not a few years ago like the Shimazu, Chosokabe, Mori etc... were sent, and if I remember correctly, Ieyasu did not do "nothing" the whole war, Hideyoshi ordered his troops to be mobilized and on standby for at least a brief period in Nagoya, which did not mean standby in Kanto, but entailed him marching troops all the way from his eastern power base, either by ship or by land, to the Nagoya staging ground.

I do not know where you are getting this from, mind you none of those nicknames exist, and were usually given to them for both good and bad. The only thing the Japanese had over the Ming and Korean was that they sent men and commanders tested by at times near-constant warfare.

If you want to be pedantic, then I'll say, "Dragon of Echigo", "God of War", "First Archer of Tokaido" etc... Pretty sure many of them did believe in their nicknames, not all of them were the "Seven Spears of Shizugatake",

Sengoku military tactics were not advanced at all and basically dated back to the Tang dynasty with innovation here and there. As for firearms, you putting Nagashino, the Oda and the Takeda on too much of a pedestal. The Japanese had little in the way good cavalry that could actually be used as more than transport, the Takeda only had one good unit of cavalry from Kanto by Nagashino, the Oda did not really use the arquebus in any innovative ways. Volly fire was something even the Ming practiced, but it was the Oda that used field fortifications and spearmen to defend them. So it is not as if Ming tactics were somehow outdated it's just that the Ming dynasty of this period was brought low by both bad councilors and emperors that refused to govern in their later years, a properly run Ming dynasty would be a nightmare.

Not quite sure what you're trying to argue for here, if you actually went back and read what I wrote, I said the Ming did have volley tactics that were quasi-square formation like in the 15th century, but it was replaced by a somewhat more "outdated" tactic by the mid 16th century from Qi Jiguang, who recognized that the unreliability of the imperial firearms (from government mismanagement) made soldiers not want to use them -> decreased effectiveness of the previous volley tactics. And like I said, the same tactics devised by Qi Jiguang were kept, and used even by Li Rusong during the Imjin War.
So yeah, compared to the what the Japanese did at Nagashino, the Ming army of the same period, was using outdated tactics.

 

[BBadolato]

No I did not say that the matchlocks were invented in China, the early firearms the Ming used developed "natively" did not possess any trigger or modern firing mechanisms before contact with the Dutch and Portuguese. "Blunderbuss", is just the "official" translation of the word 铳, which generally referred to Chinese firearms of the period.


I don't want to side track this thread to an in-depth discussion of the Momoyama period, but dividing lord simply based on Western and Eastern allegiance at Sekigahara doesn't indicate their loyalty to the Toyotomi clan, you'd probably know that Sekigahara was more of a battle over Ishida's dominance in the Toyotomi hierarchy rather than the Tokugawa forces destroying the Toyotomi government (that was an unintentional consequence to many Toyotomi loyalists). And like you said yourself, it's potential threats, it's who Hideyoshi thought could deserve a weakening, so while damiyos like Kato and Konishi were out of the questions, reluctant damiyos who surrendered not a few years ago like the Shimazu, Chosokabe, Mori etc... were sent, and if I remember correctly, Ieyasu did not do "nothing" the whole war, Hideyoshi ordered his troops to be mobilized and on standby for at least a brief period in Nagoya, which did not mean standby in Kanto, but entailed him marching troops all the way from his eastern power base, either by ship or by land, to the Nagoya staging ground.


If you want to be pedantic, then I'll say, "Dragon of Echigo", "God of War", "First Archer of Tokaido" etc... Pretty sure many of them did believe in their nicknames, not all of them were the "Seven Spears of Shizugatake",


Not quite sure what you're trying to argue for here, if you actually went back and read what I wrote, I said the Ming did have volley tactics that were quasi-square formation like in the 15th century, but it was replaced by a somewhat more "outdated" tactic by the mid 16th century from Qi Jiguang, who recognized that the unreliability of the imperial firearms (from government mismanagement) made soldiers not want to use them -> decreased effectiveness of the previous volley tactics. And like I said, the same tactics devised by Qi Jiguang were kept, and used even by Li Rusong during the Imjin War.
So yeah, compared to the what the Japanese did at Nagashino, the Ming army of the same period, was using outdated tactics.

I only talked about the Tokugawa hardly being apart of the invasion, as a counter to the Imjin War as a form of getting rid of too many troops or dangerous threats. Ieyasu was basically given the old lands of the Hojo which were valuable if far away from the capital, the Mori, Chosokabe, and Shimazu were recently beaten down and definitely not as strong as at their peak. The nicknames part is still confusing to me as I fail to see Japanese leader as believing their own hype as far as nicknames go.

What I am trying to argue with Nagashino is two things. First Nagashino was nothing special, it is not some revolutionary triumph of combined arms over cavalry. The arquebuses at Nagashino did fire one rank while another reloaded but these were no some well drilled professional units, but protected by a mix of battlefield fortifications and spearmen. Hell they did not even fight against that much cavalry. So I would not consider an overrated battle prone to mythologization on both sides as the benchmark of what the Japanese could do tactics wise with firearms. I would at least argued that the Ming might have inferior tactics since the Japanese may of had more time to refine some aspects, but it is hard to say everything developed by Qi Jiguang is outdated as the Sengoku period armies used modified Tang Dynasty tactics, and apparently took some inspiration from Qi Jiguang's work in some cases.

If it where to come down to it, I attribute the Imjin war to a mix of Hideyosh's megalomania and desire to somehow secure his position, than any master plan on Hideyoshi's part, or somehow following Nobunaga's "dream".

 

[Black Prince of Britannia]

I would at least argued that the Ming might have inferior tactics since the Japanese may of had more time to refine some aspects, but it is hard to say everything developed by Qi Jiguang is outdated as the Sengoku period armies used modified Tang Dynasty tactics, and apparently took some inspiration from Qi Jiguang's work in some cases

Honestly, that right there is a sign of someone being pedantic and nitpicking instead of trying to have an actual informative discussion with someone. But you do you, you at least have a Sengoku TL partly done, so props to you, and respect as well.