Why did no-one copy the Venetian Arsenal?

Basically, what it says on the tin. The Venetian Arsenal was a complex in Venice where they built and repaired their ships. What made it so unique however, is that they had an assembly line (using a canal) and had standardised parts for each ship. There were 16,000 people working in it, and AFAIK it is an early example of the Industrial process. At it's height it apparently could finish one galley per day. Why did no-one try and copy it? And what would be the consequences if they did?
 
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Why the hell did no-one try and copy it? And what would be the consequences if they did?

I can imagine very few places who the resources (esp. capital) to commit to such a gigantic project, AND the pressing need to commit the required massive amount of resources for such an undertaking. The Arsenal was, well, HUGE, and to my knowledge it was built incrementally through quite a long time.
Building an equivalent almost from scratch elsewhere would have been incredibly demanding for almost every contemporary polity of the time, with very few exceptions (maybe the Ottomans or, later on, the Dutch).
Moreover, I think that the Venetians were very proprietary about their shipbuilding techniques and wouldn't let foreigners to examine the inner workings in detail freely.
 
Out of necessity Venice kept the smallest standing navy of all the Mediterranean powers. In 1523 Venice maintained a fleet of 29 galleys. Out of those 5 would undergoing repairs at any one time. Venice was forced to maintain a small peace time fleet due largely to the costs of a fully manned galley. These costs were higher for Venice than for anyone else because the Venetians used almost exclusively free oarsman until well after Lepanto. Financially, Venice was unable to supply the men of a large fleet for an extended period. However it was comparatively cheap to build and refurbish large numbers of ships whenever they were needed. The Arsenal was an attempt to maximize this fact. The faster the Arsenal can build a ship the sooner Venice can have an fleet suitable for campaigning. The sailors and oarsmen were enlisted at the outbreak of war as well. Basically no one copied the Venetian Arsenal because no one had a pressing need to. The same factors of cost applied to the other Mediterranean states but ones like Spain and the Ottomans had the resources to keep more ships manned during peace.
 
Thank you. I suppose those are hard problems to overcome :eek:. I wonder if such a complex would be able to build ships cheaper and (obviously) faster than anyone else apart from Venice, and whether they could then sell them to merchants and undercut the competition. Would that help subsidise the cost?

There are general ideas there however that I don't think Venice would be able to keep quiet - there were 16,000 people employed by the Arsenal after all. Mainly the assembly process with standardised parts.

As you can probably tell, I'm a complete amateur when it comes to anything naval :D.
 
Thank you. I suppose those are hard problems to overcome :eek:. I wonder if such a complex would be able to build ships cheaper and (obviously) faster than anyone else apart from Venice, and whether they could then sell them to merchants and undercut the competition. Would that help subsidise the cost?

There are general ideas there however that I don't think Venice would be able to keep quiet - there were 16,000 people employed by the Arsenal after all. Mainly the assembly process with standardised parts.

As you can probably tell, I'm a complete amateur when it comes to anything naval :D.

Of course, the thing was not a complete secret, way to big to even bother trying a cover up. However, it was still a very huge initial investment that nobody else sees any point in doing, and with a lot of details having to be rediscovered by trial and error. Moreover, Venice had a lot of geographical features that helped having the Arsenal working effectively (sheltered lagoon and so on) and those are not found in many places, altough you could find some equally suitable locations in, say, the Netherlands (La Goulette could probably work as well).
 

elkarlo

Banned
In terms of men to crew it or the massive amounts of money they were getting from America?

Well money from America, and if they federalized, then money from everywhere as well.

Crews. Well that's where galley slave came from
But Spain did have the ability to have a real naval yard esp at Seville.
 
Well money from America, and if they federalized, then money from everywhere as well.

Crews. Well that's where galley slave came from
But Spain did have the ability to have a real naval yard esp at Seville.

Though Seville has not the geography for something as big as the Arsenal. Maybe somewhere near Cadiz would be better.

Also, I think the venetians were lucky in being able to float the timber almost directly from the Alps to practically into the Arsenal itself. Not sure it is doable anywhere in Spain.
(I think it is possible in several parts of Northern Europe though).
 
If Spain go it's crap together a d federalized in the early 1500 they could support this, and it's output

But as stated earlier, they wouldn't need to because Spain tended to have the money and resources to support a large enough standing fleet during peacetime.

It's not a case of people just looking at an efficient system and deciding to adopt it- there have to be reasons for them to do so. The Arsenal is set up to put as many hulls in the water as possible as soon as the orders are given to ramp up to wartime production- larger powers don't need that sort of efficiency and smaller powers can't afford it.
 

elkarlo

Banned
But as stated earlier, they wouldn't need to because Spain tended to have the money and resources to support a large enough standing fleet during peacetime.

It's not a case of people just looking at an efficient system and deciding to adopt it- there have to be reasons for them to do so. The Arsenal is set up to put as many hulls in the water as possible as soon as the orders are given to ramp up to wartime production- larger powers don't need that sort of efficiency and smaller powers can't afford it.


true, they wouldn't need a standing fleet. Though I think a assembly line for production could be possible. As Med Galleys were only good for a good 6 or 8 years, 10 tops. So there was a contant cycle of construction.

I guess you are right about the Arsenal. Big countries just can't corner very well, and Venice had to run a tight ship in order to survive. I don't think Spain under these circumstances could have run something so efficiently
 
Would this actually work for "proper" ships rather than just for galleys? if not, then that limits the idea's usefulness for non-Mediterranean powers.
 
I also wonder if this would work at the time for sailing ships intended for the Atlantic.

At least the Dutch Republic in the 17th century was already quite able to quickly build up their navy if they really wanted: in the leadup to the Second Anglo-Dutch War they basically replaced their entire navy with heavier ships (60 ships build in total in under two years).

Thanks to having the largest merchant in the world, Dutch wharves were already very well organized and capable of quickly building ships.

Beyond that were there the technological advantages: For example, wind-powered sawing mills in Zaandam (~300 were operational) allowed the local wharves an enormous competitive advantage.
 
true, they wouldn't need a standing fleet. Though I think a assembly line for production could be possible. As Med Galleys were only good for a good 6 or 8 years, 10 tops. So there was a contant cycle of construction.

I guess you are right about the Arsenal. Big countries just can't corner very well, and Venice had to run a tight ship in order to survive. I don't think Spain under these circumstances could have run something so efficiently

It's not a matter of efficience. It's a matter of necessity. Spain was producing ships just fine all over its coastline (one of the longest in Europe). What's the point of doing all of them in one single place?

This wasn't a Venetian invention even. Similar chain assembly lines were used already by the Carthaginians. Using them was not going to kickstart the industrial revolution or something like that.
 
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