Why did Hitler wank Croatia and Hungary?

Nietzsche

Banned
Aryan was a word that effectively had no goddamn meaning in the Reich. That word was passed around like a cheap whore, to the point that the only way to define the thing is to make a list of what it meant during a particular period of fucking time. Nordic however, kept a surprisingly consistent meaning. By which I mean you had consensus on it, with a few inconsistencies but effectively solid. Thus, Nordic was "Scandinavians, Finns(and maybe Estonians), Germans(and maybe some lucky Poles) on the Baltic coast, and Britain(but only when they were acting right)".
 
How were the ethnic compositions of Hungary's gains?

I always thought that Hungary only took those areas that they should have gotten if post-ww1 borders had been more fair, and based on what languages were spoken by the populations, but I might be wrong.

Slovakia and Romania still have Hungarian-speaking minorities today.
 
As to limited Hungarians aims, god knows. But probably withou resistence they would go more east.

West.

On the other side, without German pressure on Slovakia, war could expand as Slovak mobilised and massed army in Eastern Slovakia.

An "expanded" war! Mighty bad idea. An "expanded" war means that if the small, unsupplied and disorganized Slovakian army rushes to the East, the Hungarians can alway do just that, "expand" the war. And in actual history they did not lift a finger all along the rest of the new, unfortified, undefended border. Bratislava itself was, what, eight kilometers away from the border? The Hungarians could shell it without even advancing. if they also advance just some 10 kms North from the border just South of Nitra, they effectively cut the capital off from that slice of land out East and actually from most of the country. With a little more effort, if they reach Trnava, the capital is essentially cornered and surrounded.

But nothing of that could happen. Germany would not tolerate it, nor a continued, but limited war on the Uzhgorod front. Germany pressured both sides. They called the shots. What happened is what they were ready to give to Hungary.

Thinking of it, the fact alone that the Hungarians chose to keep the war limited and did not commence hostilities anywhere else along that very vulnerable border, goes to show exactly that they attacked what they wanted to take. If they had had unlimited territorial ambitions, and Germany gave them carte blanche, they would have attacked all along the place.
 
West.



An "expanded" war! Mighty bad idea. An "expanded" war means that if the small, unsupplied and disorganized Slovakian army rushes to the East, the Hungarians can alway do just that, "expand" the war. And in actual history they did not lift a finger all along the rest of the new, unfortified, undefended border. Bratislava itself was, what, eight kilometers away from the border? The Hungarians could shell it without even advancing. if they also advance just some 10 kms North from the border just South of Nitra, they effectively cut the capital off from that slice of land out East and actually from most of the country. With a little more effort, if they reach Trnava, the capital is essentially cornered and surrounded.

But nothing of that could happen. Germany would not tolerate it, nor a continued, but limited war on the Uzhgorod front. Germany pressured both sides. They called the shots. What happened is what they were ready to give to Hungary.

Thinking of it, the fact alone that the Hungarians chose to keep the war limited and did not commence hostilities anywhere else along that very vulnerable border, goes to show exactly that they attacked what they wanted to take. If they had had unlimited territorial ambitions, and Germany gave them carte blanche, they would have attacked all along the place.
Of course, west.
As to extending the war. Hungarians committed something between half and 3/4 of their army in Ruthenia and Eastern Slovakia. They still had to watch Romania and Yugoslavia, even if they are not obliged to move as Czechoslovakia ceased to exist.
As to Slovak army. It was small and not organized. Unsupplied? Hardly. They got more equipment at the time then they needed.
So I am not so sure of Hungarians attacks on wider front. Of course, if it went to extended war not just at east but also all along the border, they would eventually win. It would take time, it would cost equipment, which Hungarian army was lacking (not enough to supply new units), lack of ammunition. But eventually, they would win. But the cost?
Well let say after eastern part, which are pretty much lowland fell, let say Bratislava goes, let say Trnava goes. That's all lowland. And that's all was lost actually in August 1944, afterwards 2 months of warfare against experienced German troops went on. Would be unexperienced Hungarian army able to push there? Maybe, but it would take not 2 but 3 or 4 months and with nubers at the end they would win.
Afterwards? Maybe no 2nd Wiena agreement, as Romanians would be laughing at their face, their participation on war against Yugoslavia could be even more symbolic or non (which at the end wouldn't be so bed for Hungary :D )
The think is, after Hungarian attack Slovak population actually lined up behind the government, which was not really popular even with declaration of independence. Mobilisation was going on, volunteers were coming. It didn't went that way just 6 month later against Poland. There they fielded around 200 000 men all together, but war was not popular. War against Hungary, or actually, defensive war against Hungary was seen in different way.

But yes, it was not in German interest let Hungarian go all wild against Slovakia. Existence of Slovakia made actually German occupation of Czech lands basically legal. ;)
 

Nietzsche

Banned
I'll take your word on that; he considered them racially acceptable and not slavic at any rate.
Ehhhhh. Not quite that simple. Nordics by default had to be Aryans. Nordics were the best Aryans. They had tiers. As I stated earlier, the meaning of the word and the artificial tiers within it changed every time Hitler or Himmler took a dump. In short- All Nordics are Aryans, but not all Aryans are Nordics.
 
Of course, west.
As to extending the war. Hungarians committed something between half and 3/4 of their army in Ruthenia and Eastern Slovakia. They still had to watch Romania and Yugoslavia, even if they are not obliged to move as Czechoslovakia ceased to exist.
As to Slovak army. It was small and not organized. Unsupplied? Hardly. They got more equipment at the time then they needed.
So I am not so sure of Hungarians attacks on wider front. Of course, if it went to extended war not just at east but also all along the border, they would eventually win. It would take time, it would cost equipment, which Hungarian army was lacking (not enough to supply new units), lack of ammunition. But eventually, they would win. But the cost?
Well let say after eastern part, which are pretty much lowland fell, let say Bratislava goes, let say Trnava goes. That's all lowland. And that's all was lost actually in August 1944, afterwards 2 months of warfare against experienced German troops went on. Would be unexperienced Hungarian army able to push there? Maybe, but it would take not 2 but 3 or 4 months and with nubers at the end they would win.
Afterwards? Maybe no 2nd Wiena agreement, as Romanians would be laughing at their face, their participation on war against Yugoslavia could be even more symbolic or non (which at the end wouldn't be so bed for Hungary :D )
The think is, after Hungarian attack Slovak population actually lined up behind the government, which was not really popular even with declaration of independence. Mobilisation was going on, volunteers were coming. It didn't went that way just 6 month later against Poland. There they fielded around 200 000 men all together, but war was not popular. War against Hungary, or actually, defensive war against Hungary was seen in different way.

But yes, it was not in German interest let Hungarian go all wild against Slovakia. Existence of Slovakia made actually German occupation of Czech lands basically legal. ;)

From the hungarian side, the whole operation was a bluff - if the slovaks (and the germans) would have called it, well, the army was anything but ready for a war.
 
From the hungarian side, the whole operation was a bluff - if the slovaks (and the germans) would have called it, well, the army was anything but ready for a war.
Exactly, but Slovaks had even more trouble with organization, as common practice in Czechoslovakia was to send Slovak men to Czech lands and Czechs to Slovakia. Some regiments were just on 300 men strength.
But as I understood Hungary had at the time a around 10-12 brigades from which around half or more was sent to Ruthenia. From these almost all mobile units. As I understood, at the time there was not much more equipment in Hungary to supply new units. But I may be mistaken.
 
How were the ethnic compositions of Hungary's gains?

I always thought that Hungary only took those areas that they should have gotten if post-ww1 borders had been more fair, and based on what languages were spoken by the populations, but I might be wrong.

Slovakia and Romania still have Hungarian-speaking minorities today.

I think that the territories taken from the Slovak portion of Czechoslovakia and those taken from Yugoslavia had high percentages of Hungarians, while Carpatho-Ukraine and Hungarian Transylvania had a lower rate of Hungarians. In the latter case, it must be considered that the Szeklers, the Hungarians living in Romania, formed (and still form) an isolated bloc in the Transylvanian heartland, so to solve this problem, a "bridge" of land was also attached to Hungary to make sure Hungary has territorial integrity. This "bridge" was full of Romanians. I think that in Carpatho-Ukraine it was 20-30% Hungarian and in Transylvania it was 40% Hungarian.
 
I think that the territories taken from the Slovak portion of Czechoslovakia and those taken from Yugoslavia had high percentages of Hungarians, while Carpatho-Ukraine and Hungarian Transylvania had a lower rate of Hungarians. In the latter case, it must be considered that the Szeklers, the Hungarians living in Romania, formed (and still form) an isolated bloc in the Transylvanian heartland, so to solve this problem, a "bridge" of land was also attached to Hungary to make sure Hungary has territorial integrity. This "bridge" was full of Romanians. I think that in Carpatho-Ukraine it was 20-30% Hungarian and in Transylvania it was 40% Hungarian.

First Vianna award: hungarian majority areas.
Subcarpathian annexation: minority of hungarians (aside the border strip, the rest of the place inhabited by rusyns - those guys always get it).
Second Vienna: overall hungarian majority, but the "bridge" part had mostly romanian majority (relative or overall).
Yugoslavian annexation: relative hungarian majority, but overall below 50%.

Of course, debateabe, but dont do it please :)
 
It wasn't much of a deliberate Hungary or Croatia wank out of generosity, more like bribing them to cement their status as his allies. He just agreed with giving the two countries more turf in hopes that they would shut up with their own grudges and demands from the interwar period and then concentrate on aiding the German war effort in the eastern and southern theatres. Note that, unlike in Slovakia (or Austria a few years prior), there hadn't been much of a recent pro-Nazi regime change in Hungary and Croatia, which both kept a lot of their pre-WWII politicians in place well into WWII. This required a bit more goodwill from NG towards the two countries to solidify them as its vassals. Horthy was only ousted from the position of head of state (regent in his case) in '43, when Nazi favour and support quietly shifted to the actual local Nazi faction, led by Szalási.

The thing is, after Hungarian attack Slovak population actually lined up behind the government, which was not really popular even with declaration of independence. Mobilisation was going on, volunteers were coming. It didn't went that way just 6 month later against Poland. There they fielded around 200 000 men all together, but war was not popular. War against Hungary, or actually, defensive war against Hungary was seen in different way.

But yes, it was not in German interest let Hungarian go all wild against Slovakia. Existence of Slovakia made actually German occupation of Czech lands basically legal. ;)

It's nice that you point this out, it is a pretty crucial notion on how the WWII status quo came about in 1939.
 
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How were the ethnic compositions of Hungary's gains?

I always thought that Hungary only took those areas that they should have gotten if post-ww1 borders had been more fair, and based on what languages were spoken by the populations, but I might be wrong.

Slovakia and Romania still have Hungarian-speaking minorities today.
Actually, 1st Vienna award granted to Hungary areas with Hungarian majority and areas with Slovak majority. Something between 250 - 300 000 Slovaks got into Hungary.
Hungary had in 1920 something between 300 000-550 000 (numbers vary by source ;) ) in Hungary proper.
After occupation of Ruthenia around 550 000 Ruthens found themselves in Hungary and after sizing strip of Eastern Slovakia another around 65 - 75 000 Slovaks.
After sizing parts of Romania and Yugoslavia not only Romanians and Serbs found themselves in Hungary but another 60-100 000 Slovaks.
Reason for all this mess were Turkish wars and depopulation of Hungary proper.
On other side, a lot of Hungarians at the time of wars against Turks found themselves in Slovakia, so today genetic research is sometimes showing that Hungarians got more Slovak/ Slavic genes and Slovaks more Hungarian ones. But got knows. :D
 
It's nice that you point this out, it is a pretty crucial notion on how the WWII status quo came about in 1939.
Well, what is true is true.
At the time declaration of independence from Czechoslovakia and everything up to September 1939 was basically legal. In comparison declaration of wartime Slovak republic and today one had one think in common. Slovak diet (assembly)/ Parliament decided and nobody asked citizens what they want.
Afterward Slovakia was just in tow of Germany and did whatever they asked for. f course, there are some exceptions and some sabotaging from side of Slovak officials but still.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
How were the ethnic compositions of Hungary's gains?

I always thought that Hungary only took those areas that they should have gotten if post-ww1 borders had been more fair, and based on what languages were spoken by the populations, but I might be wrong.

Slovakia and Romania still have Hungarian-speaking minorities today.

Generally speaking, they took areas that were Hungarian plurality or at least could be claimed to be Hungarian plurality if one played a little with ethnic definitions. For example, a common gain was to count anyone who could speak your language as your ethnic group. So you might have a location that Poles, Hungarian Slovaks, and Russians could all claim a plurality and be serious about the claim. I.E. They person making the claim actually believed it.
 
Generally speaking, they took areas that were Hungarian plurality or at least could be claimed to be Hungarian plurality if one played a little with ethnic definitions. For example, a common gain was to count anyone who could speak your language as your ethnic group. So you might have a location that Poles, Hungarian Slovaks, and Russians could all claim a plurality and be serious about the claim. I.E. They person making the claim actually believed it.

Dont forget mixed identities, wild example: you live in Munkács in 1918, with a german and a hungarian grandfather and a rusyn and a slovak grandmother. Your father claims himself a hungarian, your mother a rusyn.
pre ww1, you claim yourself hungarian, post ww1, slovak, post vianna hungaian again, postww2, rusyn and quickly after, ukrainan.

And all the time you speak german at home :)

Another fine examples are the jews: most of them claimed themselves as hungarian pre ww1 and the government was a partner in it, they were accounted as hungarians of israelic faith, if they found themselves on the other end of the border post ww1, being hungarian was not a very good idea, but no problem, now they acounted as jews as nationality. After vienna, they counted as hungarians again, for a short time, till the gettos and transports.

So, well little playing always help and always could done. The one thing never happened, actually ask the people what do they want.

(And, for the record, happened few times, and it seems, that the results were, well.... rigged a little bit.)
 
Dont forget mixed identities, wild example: you live in Munkács in 1918, with a german and a hungarian grandfather and a rusyn and a slovak grandmother. Your father claims himself a hungarian, your mother a rusyn.
pre ww1, you claim yourself hungarian, post ww1, slovak, post vianna hungaian again, postww2, rusyn and quickly after, ukrainan.

And all the time you speak german at home :)

Another fine examples are the jews: most of them claimed themselves as hungarian pre ww1 and the government was a partner in it, they were accounted as hungarians of israelic faith, if they found themselves on the other end of the border post ww1, being hungarian was not a very good idea, but no problem, now they acounted as jews as nationality. After vienna, they counted as hungarians again, for a short time, till the gettos and transports.

So, well little playing always help and always could done. The one thing never happened, actually ask the people what do they want.

(And, for the record, happened few times, and it seems, that the results were, well.... rigged a little bit.)
So true. Like in that joke. Old man died and St. Peter is asking him in which country he lived. So he said. I was born in A-H, went to school in Czechoslovakia, get married in Hungary and had kids in Soviet Union.
St. Peter: Another cosmopolitan. Go to hell!
Old man: What cosmopolitan? Whole my life I didn't get out of Mukachevo. :p
 
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