Why did Hitler betray the Japanese in 1941?

Excerpt from a book review published in the New York Times September 8, 1989

Why did Hitler betray the Japanese in 1941?

One must wonder whether the most hated man in the free world, himself the hater of Jews, felt any kinship with the most hated Jew in history, Judas, when he gave the declaration. On December 11th, 1941, the German leader Adolf Hitler declared that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was an "act of cowardice", which "made the United States a natural ally of the German Reich in the defence of the Aryan Civilization against Asiatic Hordes". Until then, the Germans had been in alliance with the Japanese, and it was widely believed that the two might form a common front. Reading through the diary of President Roosevelt and the memoir of the British Prime Minister Churchill, one can see that the declaration came as a total shock to the Allies. Roosevelt wrote that "this is no good", while Churchill lamented "a dark day for the future of our War Effort & even Democracy itself". The President had promised Churchill that the United States would join the war in Europe at the soonest politically viable moment, but Hitler's move had thrown that plan into disarray. The Charles Lindbergh led America First Committee ended up using Hitler's declaration as a way to pressure the President into rerouting American support for the European front into the Pacific. Roosevelt came out of the affair a broken man, and it undoubtedly contributed to his death in 1942. And as we all know, defeating Germany was too late in 1945, as the Atomic Age had begun.

In his new book, Hitler's Betrayal, Professor of History at Harvard University Nicholas Hanson seeks to find out what led to the Fuhrer's decision. Eschewing traditional explanations emphasising tactical brilliance, Professor Hanson argues that Hitler was largely an irrational, emotional decision-maker. Through state-of-the-art psychological analysis of Hitler's published texts (his diaries are obviously unavailable), he argues that Hitler displayed the 'vindictive' personality trait. With this in hand he further argues that Hitler's decision was driven by the desire to revenge Japan's failure to attack the Soviet Union earlier in 1941...

[Anyone can contribute, just message me first]
 
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This whole scenario is extremely unlikely. Hitler viewed the Japanese as racially inferior, but he felt the same way towards the Italians. He never betrayed them even as Mussolini invaded and conquered foreign lands just as the Japanese did. Hitler's racism prevented him from forming a German-Japanese military alliance that could've crushed Russia in 1941, but that's as far as it could've realistically gone.

Hitler despised the United States for its racial diversity and democratic government. (Hmm...reminds me of someone else we all know and hate. God I forget his name. I think it rhymes with plump...). Not to mention that the US had provided crucial military aid to Britain during Hitler's assault in 1940. There is no way he would make a 180 and support the US against his own ally. Hitler was actually preparing for a war with the US that would start in 1942, Pearl Harbor provided him with an excuse to go to war earlier than initially predicted.
 
This whole scenario is extremely unlikely. Hitler viewed the Japanese as racially inferior, but he felt the same way towards the Italians. He never betrayed them even as Mussolini invaded and conquered foreign lands just as the Japanese did. Hitler's racism prevented him from forming a German-Japanese military alliance that could've crushed Russia in 1941, but that's as far as it could've realistically gone.

Hitler despised the United States for its racial diversity and democratic government. (Hmm...reminds me of someone else we all know and hate. God I forget his name. I think it rhymes with plump...). Not to mention that the US had provided crucial military aid to Britain during Hitler's assault in 1940. There is no way he would make a 180 and support the US against his own ally. Hitler was actually preparing for a war with the US that would start in 1942, Pearl Harbor provided him with an excuse to go to war earlier than initially predicted.

Well, we don't know what Hitler was thinking. Maybe it was racism. Maybe he had expected Hirohito to attack the Soviets, and was still incensed that this didn't happen. Maybe it was just a brilliant tactical move to empower the isolationist/pro-German coalition in America, as most historians assume.

What's not uncertain is that Hitler despised the Americans. The rhetoric of the December Declaration was just that, and the two countries would've probably come into blows in 1945 after Japan's surrender, had the Bomb not made that an unwise proposition to both sides...
 
The US would still support the UK and the Allies. Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was done to facilitate the conquests in the Pacific and Indochina against the Western Allies. This would already make the UK and the US co-beligerents in the Pacific.

When Hitler goes ''Yo, I'm helpin you out with the Japs, Franklin. We good?'' FDR's gonna be like ''Motherfucker, who you tryin' to hustle? You can't bring a single mothafuckin' ship to help me out with the Japs. Kraut boy, you straight up fighting the same people as they is in Europe and North Africa. I may be crippled, but I aint retarded, fool.''

The only chance this would really give him is if he tried to sign some sort of white peace with both Churchil and Stalin, giving up his and Benito's conquests in return for not paying war reparations. Remember, before the Japanese Pacific offensive, the Germans have just lost a major battle at Moscow. They are not coming from a position of strength as one might assume from just looking at a map of Europe.
 
The US would still support the UK and the Allies. Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was done to facilitate the conquests in the Pacific and Indochina against the Western Allies. This would already make the UK and the US co-beligerents in the Pacific.


Like I said, the December Declaration had no real intent of allying with the United States, but rather to make attacking Germany much harder for FDR. And yes, the Brits and Americans are still the Allies, first in the Pacific, and then in the Cold War against Germany.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Not happening. As previously stated, Hitler loathed the United States and Americans in general. At best, he'd make some sort of comment about how launching an attack without a proper declaration of war wasn't how Arayns waged war and he was disappointed that his allies had done so. Maybe he orders the U-boats away from American shores as a sign of good will. But that would be it.

Edit: as an aside guys, let's keep He Who Shall Not Be Named out of it. Unless we want to get the thread locked for current politics
 
Not happening. As previously stated, Hitler loathed the United States and Americans in general. At best, he'd make some sort of comment about how launching an attack without a proper decoration of war wasn't how Arayns waged war and he was disappointed that his allies had done so. Maybe he orders the U-boats away from American shores as a sign of good will. But that would be it.

That's all there is to it here. There's no alliance between US and Germany, but because of the Declaration, FDR is domestically unable to go to war against Germany.

Compare it to Molotov-Ribbentrop. Hitler obviously despised the Soviets at the time, yet was able to temporarily pretend otherwise since it was strategically advantageous.
 
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SsgtC

Banned
That's all there is to it here. There's no alliance between US and Germany, but because of the Declaration, FDR is domestically unable to go to war against Germany.

Compare it to Molotov-Ribbentrop. Hitler obviously despised the Soviets at the time, yet was able to temporarily pretend otherwise since it was politically advantageous.
I think you're misreading things. The US was already in an undeclared war with Germany with US Navy vessels issued shoot-on-sight orders for any German vessels they came across. Even if Hitler made the above statement, it will only delay the US getting fully involved in Europe by about 6 months at most.
 
That's all there is to it here. There's no alliance between US and Germany, but because of the Declaration, FDR is domestically unable to go to war against Germany.

Public opinion in the United States had already turned against Germany to the extent that such a cynical move would have been seen for what it was. The unstable murderer who's broken every promise he's ever made and happens to be at war with America's only real ally in the Pacific is not going to win a popularity contest.
 
Hitler's U-boats are stopping arms and food shipments to Britain, USA's ally. It's occupying The Netherlands, another US ally in the east. It allowed for Japan to seize French Indochina. Sure, FDR wouldn't declare war on the Nazis the same day as he'd declare war on Tokyo, but he'd find an immidiate cause sooner or later. Still, if you have an interesting timeline in mind for this, don't let the fact that the POD is so unlikely discourage you. There could still be a good story in there, or just some interesting tidbits.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Could Hitlerbe capable of such duplicity. While the Germans had lost a major battle in Moscow the Germans were still at the top of their game. They had knocked Russians in the teeth and gottten all the way to gates of Moscow in less 1/2 a year. The German central command believed that Russians were incapable of recovering from the loses they had suffered and Russia surrender was about to happen in 1942.

They were already planning on the next phase of the war. Defeating Britain in the Battle of Britain act 2 and then conquering America.

For your scenario to have any chance we need the German Barbarossa offensive to be less successful and Germans still far away from kiev and Moscow. Now with the Germans fighting for their lives against a stubborn Soviet army would think twice of antogonizing another powerful adversary.
 

ASUKIRIK

Banned
Calm down guys, let the OP update the story first, perhaps the POD is located further back and events turned out to be fitting in place.

Nobody likes when they write a story and everyone just bandwagon them of being impossible. Don't judge something from just a chapter.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
This whole scenario is extremely unlikely. Hitler viewed the Japanese as racially inferior, but he felt the same way towards the Italians. He never betrayed them even as Mussolini invaded and conquered foreign lands just as the Japanese did. Hitler's racism prevented him from forming a German-Japanese military alliance that could've crushed Russia in 1941, but that's as far as it could've realistically gone.

Hitler despised the United States for its racial diversity and democratic government. (Hmm...reminds me of someone else we all know and hate. God I forget his name. I think it rhymes with plump...). Not to mention that the US had provided crucial military aid to Britain during Hitler's assault in 1940. There is no way he would make a 180 and support the US against his own ally. Hitler was actually preparing for a war with the US that would start in 1942, Pearl Harbor provided him with an excuse to go to war earlier than initially predicted.
Cute. NO current politics outside of Chat.
 
When Hitler goes ''Yo, I'm helpin you out with the Japs, Franklin. We good?'' FDR's gonna be like ''Motherfucker, who you tryin' to hustle? You can't bring a single mothafuckin' ship to help me out with the Japs. Kraut boy, you straight up fighting the same people as they is in Europe and North Africa. I may be crippled, but I aint retarded, fool.”

That would make sense if there were rap battles to go with the actual battles for WWII. Which would have been awesome.
 
I love this POD. I sketched it out myself once on an other thread and got replies as abve. There is nothing to indicate it was around the corner IOTL, but on the other hand hand, it would only take some thoughts:
Were is this going to go. War against Britain, USSR and the US.......Going to war with Japan, would have made it very difficult to muster an anti-german opposition and would not hurt Germany at all. It would really reinforce Hitler's claim, that he was the bulwark against communism. Just the best possible move at the time, but he didnt see the opportunity IOTL. ITTL he does. Lets see where it goes.
 
Since Hitler already betrayed the British via the agreement with Chamberlain, FDR is going to laugh his ass off when Hitler makes the declaration and say "Who does he think he's fooling? Besides himself." War will be declared on Germany, Italy and Japan since they're allies. NO ONE is going to believe Hitler's disavowal of Japan's actions; FDR & Churchill are going to believe he made it because Pearl Harbor wasn't as successful as the Japanese wanted it to be AND it's an attempt to keep the USA from declaring war on Germany and Italy as well as Japan.
 
I mean, the likely outcome if the US not hitting Normandy is just "USSR takes more territory, but slower".

Like, by this point, Hitler cannot achieve his goals for invading Russia, flat out. If the US still lend leases, which there is no reason to assume why it should not, then all this does is mean the Soviets get some more divisions to chew through. Even if the US cuts off lend lease, the critical point has passed, and the Soviets are not losing the war without more ASBs.

Additionally, there is no way in hell Germany got the bomb in time, they were so far behind it's laughable. So even *if* the USSR loses, all you've done is create AANW with the numbers filed off in my opinion.
 
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