Why did Britain arm Japan pre-ww1 to 1920s?

Without a strong Japan there is no need for Russia to send its battleships to the Pacific. I expect Vladivostok or Port Arthur to have a protected cruiser or two plus some gunboats. Britain doesn’t need Japan’s help on that score.
By then, Sakhalin was already part of Russia and Manchuria was under Russia's sphere of influence in China. I mentioned earlier that France, Germany, and Russia diplomatically pressured Japan out of occupying the Liadong Peninsula in the Triple Intervention. The Russians wanted to complete the Trans-Siberian Railway and they also wanted Port Arthur for warm water. So it's entirely possible that Russia had ambitions further south in China, Korea, and in the Pacific.

I also mentioned that Britain and Russia competed for influence in Afghanistan and Persia during The Great Game. Britain and Japan were both threatened by German and Russian aggression. By forming an alliance with Japan, it took Russian attention away from Afghanistan and Persia.
 
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So not project the alliances of WWI back in stone. Russia was, until the Russo Japanese war, Brirains greatest rival overseas, especially given the alliance with Grnsce (look up the Fashoda Incident). Japan was at that time not the power she would become and the Europeans especially underestimated them for racial reasons. Japan was useful because alliances are as much to contain the ambitions of the partner as the common enemy- better to have the Japanese inside the tent pissing out, as the saying goes.

The implosion of Russia after WWI and especially Britains anxiety to keep the US inside resulted in the end of the Anglo Japanese alliance in the 1920s, before you could properly speak of Imperial Japan becoming, well, full on Imperial Japan. Japan's hyper nationalism, and atrocities in China (as well as the blatant desire to invade and conquer it) was icing on the cake.
 
Prior to 1905, the RN Two Power standard applied to France and Russia. The Boer war proved to GB that she had no friends in Europe. The A-J Alliance made Japan focus on north Asia leaving South Asia and Pacific free from potential Japanese competition. The Japanese felt that they had only narrowly avoided being colonised in the 1800’s and valued the Partnership with GB. They were eager learners of western thought and technology. They did consider making English their first language.
Building up a Navy was both industrial development and nation building. Many turn of the century countries were adopting this philosophy.
 

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Britain built ships for Chile, Greece and Turkey as well to name a few. Projects like this were a method of projecting influence.

That and other posters have pointed out, they had an alliance with the Japanese. It’s pretty clearly aimed at Russia. But also, once the British entered into an alliance with a nation, it was often viewed as a way of exerting further influence on that nation. By being Japan’s ally, they could hope to ensure that Japanese aggression (if it developed any further) would be directed away from their own Colonies.
 
Yes, but those Russian warships were there because of the growing Japanese fleet that the British built for them. Presumably the Japanese fleet would still exist, but with Italian or German supplied ships, but likely delivered late and to designs more attuned to short range and coastal ops. I wouldn’t want to take aN Ammiraglio class battleship from Italy against a Borodino or even a Peresvet class. Without British training for the IJN crews, it will be interesting to see how they compare against Russians.

But without the 1902 Anglo-Japan alliance it’s doubtful that Japan would have the gumption to challenge Russia. Japan has just seen what the European Powers do to “uppity” Asians during the Boxer Rebellion. And besides, there’s no British territory near Pacific Russia. In the Pacific you have BC Canada, ANZ, Hong Kong and a smattering of islands. If Russia wanted to rattle the British its not going to happen via the North Pacific.

That’s what I’m getting at, there was no reason other than short term revenue to private firms for the Brits to create the Japanese battlefleet.
that really is projecting back from a WW2 perspective. There is absolutely no reason to think Russian expansionism was contingent on Japan, and even if it was the UK had every reason to want to threaten another possible front given the Russian threat to India and Iran, and possibly through the straits It was not obvious in 1902 that Russia was a paper tiger and even after that good reason to assume they were striving to correct their errors and could be a threat. Post the creation of the entente and given the US was not a factor in world affairs it made sense to delegate worrying about the Germans in the far east to Japan. it was only post 1917 that the policy ran into any issues, and but for unrestricted submarine warfare that still might never have happened..... It certainly was not predictable in advance..
 
@MatthewB - as others have noted, to help Britain contain Russia. Having the Japanese to worry about meant Russia wouldn’t be tempted towards Afghanistan or India.

It was also a thing for colonial security. IIRC, Britain’s alliance with Japan included a proviso that if Britain got involved in a European war, Japan would look after the British colonies in the Far East for the duration of the war.
 
I understand, and yes a British counter is needed. The Canopus class were specifically designed for Far East ops and until Fisher’s recall of the fleet spent much of their career at Hong Kong (Singapore was not yet a large RN naval base). What’s not needed is a surrogate Japanese force to counter whatever the Russians have, as the RN has more than enough warships to counter Russia whilst still keeping Germany and France on their toes.

Without a strong Japan there is no need for Russia to send its battleships to the Pacific. I expect Vladivostok or Port Arthur to have a protected cruiser or two plus some gunboats. Britain doesn’t need Japan’s help on that score.
I'd expect more than that, the Siberian Military Flotilla, which predated the Pacific squadron had 8 cruisers, 22 torpedo boats and 5 gunboats. The Japanese threat resulted in the 7 Battleships, 8 cruisers, 13 torpedo boats and 2 gunboats of the Pacific squadron arriving. Remember Vladivostok and Port Arthur are Warm Water Ports, they can be used for launching raids all year round.

Britain has to worry about European waters. The 2 power rule means the RN equals the MN and Russian Navy put together, but given geography and the advantages of the defense, it is quite likely it can't spare heavy forces for the Far East if it fights both of them. Hence the need for a proxy. A proxy also means that Britain can counter Russia without spending blood and treasure on it. Japan spent 450 million Pounds and took 70-80,000 dead in the Russo Japanese War, why have that many Britons dead or spend that much (more given PPP differences) when Japan can do it

And this still doesn't answer the other issue, what happens on land. Japan had more than just a fleet you know, they were useful because they had a large army that, provided sea control could be achieved, could stymie the Russians that way. Britain in no way has an Army to spare for that. And to get that army into action it needs a fleet to protect the transports, while one can argue the RN could do it, if Japan has a fleet then the UK does not have to get involved
 
Prior to 1905, the RN Two Power standard applied to France and Russia. The Boer war proved to GB that she had no friends in Europe. The A-J Alliance made Japan focus on north Asia leaving South Asia and Pacific free from potential Japanese competition. The Japanese felt that they had only narrowly avoided being colonised in the 1800’s and valued the Partnership with GB. They were eager learners of western thought and technology. They did consider making English their first language.
Building up a Navy was both industrial development and nation building. Many turn of the century countries were adopting this philosophy.
Is there a Source for this?
 
@MatthewB One other thing to note is that you’re implying that it was the British government was the one to arm Japan’s Navy. This was not the case, and is in fact projecting modern American methods back into the 1890s. The British government had nothing to do with Japanese Naval construction besides not blocking the sales. The Japanese were dealing directly with shipbuilders and paying in cash; I know for sure the Izumo and Asama-class armored cruisers were designed in-house by Armstrong Whitworth.

So to answer your question, Britain was not arming Japan. The Japanese were arming themselves from British private shipbuilders, who were free to sell to pretty much whoever they wanted, because the navies that could actually threaten British interests built their own ships - or, in Russia’s case, went French.
 
No, that rivalry between the the Mori and the Shimazu Clans, dating back to the 17thC
Thanks for the information.

Can I take it that one clan played a leading role in the modernisation of the army and the second the navy? Presumably the navy clan had always had maritime commerce and other naval links?
 

MatthewB

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I think we've covered that fear of Russia and growing events at home drove Britain to arm Japan.

But, what happens if Britain does not align with nor allow its private firms to sell warships or expertise to Japan? Presumably Armstrong would not have been permitted to sell warships to Russia, but IDK.
 

MatthewB

Banned
Japan would have turned to another power for ships and training, probably Germany.
What about a rapprochement between Russia and Japan? That would be very much in Russia's interest, as it would annoy the British and reduce the need for expansion of the Pacific fleet. Imagine Japan and Russia together building railways in Manchuria.

So, 1900, the Tsar sends a senior minister or royal to Japan to make an offer. Russia will gift Port Arthur to Japan in return for a trade and cooperation agreement. Russia may have just saved the Tsar's regime as the 1905 revolution won't happen. Japan gets a free hand in Port Arthur and gains railway experience and trade with Russia.
 
Russia and Hapan reconciling is much like France and Germany reconciling. Not impossible, by any means but it depends on both powers wanting to play ball- and the Tsar, prior to the Russo Japanese war, absolutely did not want to play ball (the Japanese were, if only for self preservation reasons, much more inclined towards compromise within reason). Post RJW Russia and Japan had an uneasy detente which lasted until Stalins invasion of manchuria.

In the first place Russia was, prior to stickimg her nose in the orient and getting it cut off by the Japanese, as expansionist towards China (and Central and SW Asia IE Iran) as the Balkans. This was the principal cause of the war (and of the Anglo Japanese alliance) and Russias subsequent inability to waste/spare resources on China was a major factor on the subsequent detente.

Racism cannot be neglected here. Tsarist Russia was.... very disdainful of Japan; frankly even England, which was somewhat less blatantly bigoted on the matter (and more inclined to be friendly due to the alliance) was not inclined to view Japan as more than a regional power albeit a very significant and powerful one.

Put another way Russia and Japan reconciling is not impossible- really just about anything is possible in the chaotic diplomacy of the long 19th century- but it depends on considering the supposed interests in the involved powers and them deciding a formal arrangement is more useful. Why enter into an alliance when an informal or less binding agreement or treaty gets you most of what you want? Why should Japan burn her decent relations with both Britain and Germany and tie herself firmly to the largely hostile Russians, when the latter are not really able to offer her anything she needs (capital, trade, naval reinforcement, military advisors etc).
 
Thanks for the information.

Can I take it that one clan played a leading role in the modernisation of the army and the second the navy? Presumably the navy clan had always had maritime commerce and other naval links?
Commerce, well, the Mori Clan was closely allied to the Murakami Clans, that were very good at being pirates, and another ally, the Kobayakawa also heavy in trade.
 
I think we've covered that fear of Russia and growing events at home drove Britain to arm Japan.

But, what happens if Britain does not align with nor allow its private firms to sell warships or expertise to Japan? Presumably Armstrong would not have been permitted to sell warships to Russia, but IDK.
Any British government that blocks private firms from selling warships to Japan without an extremely good national security reason is not a government that's going to last long. Japan was, during the predreadnought era, by far the biggest purchaser of warships in the world. Nobody else would come close until the South American dreadnought race.

Japan's two options here are France and Germany. France, historically, was Japan's primary naval supplier until the 1890s, due to philosophical alignment along Jeune Ecole lines. Germany was smaller, providing only the armored cruiser Yakumo. However, given the shipyard limitations of both countries compared to Germany, the Japanese would likely split the order for their first pair of battleships between the two.

At which point the British companies are going to howl bloody murder and all but demand Parliament lift the restrictions, because that's a lot of money the government is cockblocking them from.
 
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So, 1900, the Tsar sends a senior minister or royal to Japan to make an offer.
1900 is too late for reconciliation. Japan would not be able to trust Russia's motives, because in 1895, France, Germany, and Russia diplomatically pressured Japan out of occupying the Liaodong Peninsula in the Triple Intervention. Russia wanted to keep Port Arthur and construct the Trans-Siberian Railway themselves (and using Chinese labor). They would not need any Japanese help, and they also wanted to keep Japan out of China.
Racism cannot be neglected here. Tsarist Russia was.... very disdainful of Japan; frankly even England, which was somewhat less blatantly bigoted on the matter (and more inclined to be friendly due to the alliance) was not inclined to view Japan as more than a regional power albeit a very significant and powerful one.

Why should Japan burn her decent relations with both Britain and Germany and tie herself firmly to the largely hostile Russians, when the latter are not really able to offer her anything she needs (capital, trade, naval reinforcement, military advisors etc).
Japan did have decent relations with Germany, but Germany's involvement in the Triple Intervention burned in the back of their minds. Although Germany and Russia were rivals, Kaiser Wilhelm II's 'yellow peril' made him Russia's cheerleader during the Russo-Japanese War.
 
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