Why did Britain arm Japan pre-ww1 to 1920s?

MatthewB

Banned
Britain essentially built the steam age IJN, as well as consulting on early aircraft carriers. Why did Britain think it was in its interest to create a new first rate naval and military power in the Far East?

Sure, there was the worry about German unification and its expanding navy resulting in much of the RN being recalled to home waters, but that’s still no reason for arming Japan. There was no threat to Britain that could be delegated to Japan if the RN exited the region, as Japan was the only power in the region.

I understand the sense of selling cruisers and even battleships to South Americans, Greece and Turkey. These folks can’t threaten the empire. But why arm Japan? The ANZ folks must have complained every time a new Japanese cruiser or battleship was delivered from British yards.

As an aside, here’s the first Japanese warship to visit London since 1902, https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-ship-squeezes-Tower-Bridge-sails-Thames.html
 

MatthewB

Banned
As far as Alt History goes. Had Britain no sold warships to Japan presumably someone else would. Not the US, so perhaps the Germans or even Austria? My guess is the Italians as they had a credible warship building capacity and no territory that Japan could threaten.
 

Anglo-Japanese Alliance, 30 January 1902..........

Or somebody to stop Russian forces in the far east threatening GB interests.
 
Britain essentially built the steam age IJN, as well as consulting on early aircraft carriers. Why did Britain think it was in its interest to create a new first rate naval and military power in the Far East?

Sure, there was the worry about German unification and its expanding navy resulting in much of the RN being recalled to home waters, but that’s still no reason for arming Japan. There was no threat to Britain that could be delegated to Japan if the RN exited the region, as Japan was the only power in the region.

I understand the sense of selling cruisers and even battleships to South Americans, Greece and Turkey. These folks can’t threaten the empire. But why arm Japan? The ANZ folks must have complained every time a new Japanese cruiser or battleship was delivered from British yards.
Until 1905 there was another power in the region to consider, not so coincidentally the last Great Power the British fought a war against, Russia. In 1904 Russia had 7 Battleships and 18 cruisers in the Pacific, that was not a small force. It's only when Japan beat the Russians that Japan became the only naval power in the region. Until that point Japan was a necessary counterbalance to Russia, remember Russia and Germany had been allied until 1890 and themselves did not have major disagreements

After that point the Japanese were a valuable ally, better to have them on your side than not. Because if the whole Royal Navy was in Europe dealing with the HSF, a hostile Japan would be impossible for the RN to deal with. By that point Japan was building their own major warships and British help was fairly modest. It was only when WWI ended that Japan's use ended, as the RN was no longer tied to Europe and American goodwill was worth more than an alliance with Japan
 
Until 1905 there was another power in the region to consider, not so coincidentally the last Great Power the British fought a war against, Russia. In 1904 Russia had 7 Battleships and 18 cruisers in the Pacific, that was not a small force. It's only when Japan beat the Russians that Japan became the only naval power in the region. Until that point Japan was a necessary counterbalance to Russia, remember Russia and Germany had been allied until 1890 and themselves did not have major disagreements

After that point the Japanese were a valuable ally, better to have them on your side than not. Because if the whole Royal Navy was in Europe dealing with the HSF, a hostile Japan would be impossible for the RN to deal with. By that point Japan was building their own major warships and British help was fairly modest. It was only when WWI ended that Japan's use ended, as the RN was no longer tied to Europe and American goodwill was worth more than an alliance with Japan
This.

Britain actually wanted to renew the Anglo-Japanese Alliance in order to prevent Japan from gravitating towards Germany and to contain the Russian SFSR. In addition to goodwill to the US, Canada objected to renewing the Alliance, and both Britain and the US wanted to improve relations with China.
 
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MatthewB

Banned
Until 1905 there was another power in the region to consider, not so coincidentally the last Great Power the British fought a war against, Russia. In 1904 Russia had 7 Battleships and 18 cruisers in the Pacific,
Yes, but those Russian warships were there because of the growing Japanese fleet that the British built for them. Presumably the Japanese fleet would still exist, but with Italian or German supplied ships, but likely delivered late and to designs more attuned to short range and coastal ops. I wouldn’t want to take aN Ammiraglio class battleship from Italy against a Borodino or even a Peresvet class. Without British training for the IJN crews, it will be interesting to see how they compare against Russians.

But without the 1902 Anglo-Japan alliance it’s doubtful that Japan would have the gumption to challenge Russia. Japan has just seen what the European Powers do to “uppity” Asians during the Boxer Rebellion. And besides, there’s no British territory near Pacific Russia. In the Pacific you have BC Canada, ANZ, Hong Kong and a smattering of islands. If Russia wanted to rattle the British its not going to happen via the North Pacific.

That’s what I’m getting at, there was no reason other than short term revenue to private firms for the Brits to create the Japanese battlefleet.
 
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And there’s no British territory near Russia.
I know British India didn't border the Russian Empire directly, but Britain and Russia competed for influence over Afghanistan and Persia (The Great Game). Nearby in West China, Tibet was under Britain's sphere of influence, while Xinjiang was under Russia's.

Meanwhile further east in China, France, Germany, and Russia diplomatically pressured Japan out of occupying the Liaodong Peninsula, which was one of Japan's spoils of war from the Sino-Japanese War. So Britain and Japan found themselves sharing two mutual enemies, Germany and Russia.

The Anglo-Japanese Alliance not only spelled out a two-front war against Germany, it also countered the Franco-Russian Alliance and drew Russian attention away from Central Asia.
 
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Yes, but those Russian warships were there because of the growing Japanese fleet that the British built for them. Presumably the Japanese fleet would still exist, but with Italian or German supplied ships, but likely delivered late and to designs more attuned to short range and coastal ops.

And there’s no British territory near Pacific Russia. In the Pacific you have BC Canada, ANZ, Hong Kong and a smattering of islands. If Russia wanted to rattle the British its not going to happen via the North Pacific. That’s what I’m getting at, there was no reason other than short term revenue to private firms for the Brits to create the Japanese battlefleet.
Russia had a Pacific force since 1731, it wasn't especially large until the Japanese fleet started growing, but it was there

There does not need to be British territory there. Russia having a base there means they can threaten British commerce in the Far East, which was very considerable, it's another exit point for commerce raiders that needs to be plugged. In addition Britain wanted to limit Russian involvement in China, because they didn't want to get economically shut out of Northern China. Having an ally in the region was useful for that, someone who's interested in containing Russia so Britain does not have to do it themselves. Japan needs a powerful fleet to be able to secure supply lines to the mainland, so that they can send an Army to counter a potential Russian Army doing something Britain doesn't like in Northern China. Then when a Russian Pacific fleet gets built, Japan needs a stronger fleet to prevent that from being a problem too
 
Japan could support a Fleet large enough to counter the Russians and Germans in the Pacific. Australia, Canada and New Zealand combined couldn't and the US wasn't interested in foreign entanglements. Japan was really the only available option other than funding a second Royal Navy for the Pacific.
 

MatthewB

Banned
Russia had a Pacific force since 1731, it wasn't especially large until the Japanese fleet started growing, but it was there
I understand, and yes a British counter is needed. The Canopus class were specifically designed for Far East ops and until Fisher’s recall of the fleet spent much of their career at Hong Kong (Singapore was not yet a large RN naval base). What’s not needed is a surrogate Japanese force to counter whatever the Russians have, as the RN has more than enough warships to counter Russia whilst still keeping Germany and France on their toes.

Without a strong Japan there is no need for Russia to send its battleships to the Pacific. I expect Vladivostok or Port Arthur to have a protected cruiser or two plus some gunboats. Britain doesn’t need Japan’s help on that score.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_Imperial_Japanese_Army#1886_version

Who does the IJA look like in the 1880s?

To quote Wiki

"The early Imperial Japanese Army was developed with the assistance of advisors from France,[19] through the second French military mission to Japan (1872–80), and the third French military mission to Japan (1884–89). However, after France's defeat in 1871 the Japanese government switched to the victorious Germans as a model. From 1886 to April 1890, it hired German military advisors (Major Jakob Meckel, replaced in 1888 by von Wildenbrück and Captain von Blankenbourg) to assist in the training of the Japanese General Staff."

Japan looked to winners for its modernization. In broad terms it looks to the UK for its navy and the Germans for its army.

So... let's assume what might happen if the UK pulled its support in developing Japan?
 
Quite simply geography. They wanted an ally in the region. The fact that Japanese money went into British companies also had something to do with it.
The fact the Japanese had a British Navy and a German army might explain some of the hostility between the two branches
 
But why arm Japan?
Arming Japan kept their Russian rivals occupied in their own backyard, rather than monkeying around in the NW Frontier, and Japan was also focused directly on China, again, not a threat to the largest Navy on the planet with a Treaty Port of Hong Kong
 
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