Why Did Bosnia and Albania Convert When No One Else Did?

[Dementor]

We're drifting a bit off-topic but yeah...it's an interesting point you make nonetheless...

What made it really interesting was that it was already a layered established society within not only Salonica but Northern Greece in general. Though of course many of the local owners of businesses and industries were Jewish(edit: And don't forget that Salonica was till about the 60's way more industrialised than Athens/Attica had been the past 400 years.), there was a very populous middle-class Jewish community, and an even more populous lower-class one...Jewish people of all walks of life called this place home...and Ladino was a very useful language to be able to speak if you were visiting...

To be fair though, even after Salonica was annexed back in 1912, the Jewish community managed to maintain its influence over Salonican affairs till the Nazis "relocated" them in the 40's. Though it'd be lying to say they prospered they were at least not openly discriminated against. But I do know for a fact that there was a "Jewish" party in local elections and prominent local Jews were elected into the city council consistently, many of them receiving the majority of their votes from their Orthodox constituents.

I mean, and that is funny if you think about it, during the years prior to WW2, under Metaxas' regime, when a sort of Fascist Youth was established, there was consideration to allow Jews to join......somehow that didn't happen through...

Also another interesting point is that when the local proletariat had radicalized itself and local disgruntled industrial workers started actively voicing their demands towards the industrialists, among the most prominent figures on both sides of the fence were Jewish...the Jewish industrialists owned the flourishing textile industry and the Jewish industrial workers were the ones that despised them most for it...

All in all, I still hear all those stories from survivors and Salonica in the 40's strikes me as a much better place to live in than Salonica in 2012...

I've thought of a way for Salonica to keep its Jewish character, though I'm afraid you're not going to like it
Bulgaria did not deport its own Jews during WWII, so if Salonica had been part of Bulgaria (a possibility that some of the Jews supported), they could have survived. Though they would probably still have immigrated to Israel, so that might not work either
Of course with all the butterflies involved, it's quite unlikely that the OTL circumstances would be repeated, so it's probably a silly idea...

 

[Horgus]

Also, the Ottomans actually destroyed many Christian institutions, for example the Bulgarian patriarchate. Though in this way the Constantinople patriarchate was strengthened, but it's hardly true for the whole Orthodox Church.

Well, an argument could be made that the centralization of the nearly defunct Orthodox church at the very least slowed conversion of its former adherent's to Islam.

Weren't the Copts in particular faring poorly under Mamluk rule? Even today they constitute by far the largest Christian population in the Muslim world, and on their own would easily be a country with a population equivalent to, say, Greece.

 

[Dementor]

Well, an argument could be made that the centralization of the nearly defunct Orthodox church at the very least slowed conversion of its former adherent's to Islam.

An argument could also be made that by turning the Orthodox church into a foreign for many of the Christians of the Balkans and by also making into a helpful instrument of the Ottomans, conversion to Islam was encouraged. This is often held up as a reason for the mass conversion in the Rhodope Mountains.

Weren't the Copts in particular faring poorly under Mamluk rule? Even today they constitute by far the largest Christian population in the Muslim world, and on their own would easily be a country with a population equivalent to, say, Greece.

The Copts are not Eastern Orthodox, so they weren't under the Patriarchate in Constantinople.

 

[HeWhoIsMe]

I've thought of a way for Salonica to keep its Jewish character, though I'm afraid you're not going to like it
Bulgaria did not deport its own Jews during WWII, so if Salonica had been part of Bulgaria (a possibility that some of the Jews supported), they could have survived. Though they would probably still have immigrated to Israel, so that might not work either
Of course with all the butterflies involved, it's quite unlikely that the OTL circumstances would be repeated, so it's probably a silly idea...

Oh, well, truth be told, if it was a matter of saving all those people maybe Salonica should have passed to the Bulgarians! We would have gotten it back in the post-war re-distribution of lands anyway...

And it wouldn't even have to be granted to Bulgaria. OTL the Bulgarian occupation zone in Northern Greece ended a mere 150 kms east of Salonica. The Germans actually considered assigning the Bulgarians as an occupation force, but they deemed Thessaloniki too important to be administered by their allies. Partly because they wanted to oversee the "relocation" of the local Jewish community...

What's more interesting is I never knew the Bulgarians never deported their Jews!
Something like how the Italians resisted Hitler's urges to deport their Jews to Germany?
WW2 Bulgaria just got a +1 in my book...

 

[Kosta]

What's more interesting is I never knew the Bulgarians never deported their Jews!

Don't be fooled: they deported plenty of our Jews, though. The Kehila Kedosha Synagogue of Broome Street, New York actively refutes it and does some research to prove it.

If anyone here doesn't believe me, I'd be happy to help them get in touch with New York's Romaniote scholars.

 

[Dementor]

Oh, well, truth be told, if it was a matter of saving all those people maybe Salonica should have passed to the Bulgarians! We would have gotten it back in the post-war re-distribution of lands anyway...

And it wouldn't even have to be granted to Bulgaria. OTL the Bulgarian occupation zone in Northern Greece ended a mere 150 kms east of Salonica. The Germans actually considered assigning the Bulgarians as an occupation force, but they deemed Thessaloniki too important to be administered by their allies. Partly because they wanted to oversee the "relocation" of the local Jewish community...

What's more interesting is I never knew the Bulgarians never deported their Jews!
Something like how the Italians resisted Hitler's urges to deport their Jews to Germany?
WW2 Bulgaria just got a +1 in my book...

As much as it pains me to say this, things were not nearly as nice. Bulgaria did not deport the Jews which lived in Bulgaria's prewar territory, largely because of the intervention of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church and the massive protests against the deportation plans, but Bulgaria did deport the Jews of the occupied territories in Yugoslavia and Greece. So at most Bulgaria can be credited with having a population that wouldn't stand for the deportation of the Jews if they could help it.
My suggestion was for Bulgaria to get Salonica in the First Balkan War. That almost happened in OTL. But again, with all the butterflies, it seems unlikely that there would be a repeat of OTL circumstances (Bulgaria a reluctant ally of a genocidal Germany).

 

[Iori]

Never is a very strong word. The Ottomans certainly converted by force; you do know what Janissaries are, right?

Their should have been a 'really' after the never to denote I mean in general, not never ever did.

How exactly did Christianity fare well in the Ottoman Empire? That's a strange claim to make, considering the great decline of the number of Christians in the Empire.

Look at any other Empire/major state in Europe and the Middle-East between 1400 and 1900, they all tried, and to varying degress succeeded, in eliminating (either through expulsion, conversion or execution) religious minorities (be they different religions or different denominations) to ensure the state-favored religion/sect was dominant and others gotten rid of.

 

[HeWhoIsMe]

Look at any other Empire/major state in Europe and the Middle-East between 1400 and 1900, they all tried, and to varying degress succeeded, in eliminating (either through expulsion, conversion or execution) religious minorities (be they different religions or different denominations) to ensure the state-favored religion/sect was dominant and others gotten rid of.

You could say that the state that most resembled the OE on the European side most probably was Reconquista Portugal. And I say "most probably" because the other Iberian Christian kingdoms might be much of the same but I don't really have any certified info on them, so I can't really say...and I'm sure they weren't the only ones.

In Portugal, there was cultural tolerance towards the Mozarabic people(Iberians, that lived under muslim rule, had grown accustomed to Arabic rule, spoke Arabic, and some of them were even muslim), but pretty much as in the OE, NO you couldn't get very far if you were an unbeliever in the Portuguese kingdom.

Most of the Mozarabs on the other hand, either being Christians, or having converted into Catholicism after being included into the Portuguese kingdom fared rather well. A much celebrated Count of Coimbra whose name I can't recall, was a Mozarab, and was one of Afonso I's(the celebrated first king of Portugal) most influential and trusted vassals.

Trade with the North Arifcan Arab states was where even the most lowly muslim could get involved and make a fortune. Interestingly, in the OE as well, most well-off Christian subjects were traders or other proto-capitalists of the time...

So, after having established that being allowed to remain Christian is not the same as being accepted as a Christian(or muslim, buddhist, or whatever...), please tell me how was the Ottoman Empire any more progressive than Portugal? At least in the timeframe you provide.

 

[HeWhoIsMe]

My suggestion was for Bulgaria to get Salonica in the First Balkan War.

Oh! Now I got it! You villain, you! How can you suggest such a horrid thing???

Alright, now that I've had my obligatory nationalist tantrum, I can admit that indeed it was not Greek military prowess that got us Salonica but Greek celebrated slyness...

Yes, indeed the Bulgarians could have captured it instead of us. No argument there.

 

[Falecius]

You could say that the state that most resembled the OE on the European side most probably was Reconquista Portugal. And I say "most probably" because the other Iberian Christian kingdoms might be much of the same but I don't really have any certified info on them, so I can't really say...and I'm sure they weren't the only ones.

In Portugal, there was cultural tolerance towards the Mozarabic people(Iberians, that lived under muslim rule, had grown accustomed to Arabic rule, spoke Arabic, and some of them were even muslim), but pretty much as in the OE, NO you couldn't get very far if you were an unbeliever in the Portuguese kingdom.

Most of the Mozarabs on the other hand, either being Christians, or having converted into Catholicism after being included into the Portuguese kingdom fared rather well. A much celebrated Count of Coimbra whose name I can't recall, was a Mozarab, and was one of Afonso I's(the celebrated first king of Portugal) most influential and trusted vassals.

Trade with the North Arifcan Arab states was where even the most lowly muslim could get involved and make a fortune. Interestingly, in the OE as well, most well-off Christian subjects were traders or other proto-capitalists of the time...

So, after having established that being allowed to remain Christian is not the same as being accepted as a Christian(or muslim, buddhist, or whatever...), please tell me how was the Ottoman Empire any more progressive than Portugal? At least in the timeframe you provide.

Well, I kinda recall that in the said timeframe, Muslims were not allowed to be such in Portugal for most time. Christians were accepted as such by the Ottoman authorities. They were not on equal footing with Muslims, but it seems to me that Portugal is not even close to display a similar degree of tolerance. I think that Poland may be a more suitable comparison.

 

[HeWhoIsMe]

I think that Poland may be a more suitable comparison.

Please do elaborate if you don't mind.

Portugal, even if as you said Muslims were not accepted as Muslim per se, seemed to to fit the description of a semi-tolerant state.

But I have no idea about Poland. I guess it has something to do with tolerance towards the Pagans in Prussia?

 

[HeWhoIsMe]

Muslims were not allowed to be such in Portugal for most time.

There were muslim merchants residing in the Portuguese kingdom, as i said above, they were in control of most of the Portuguese trade with the North African coast.

A direct analogy seems to be the Ottoman Christian merchanrts in the Balkans. Most of them controlling Ottoman trade with the Habsburgs, Venice, the rest of Europe...

Indeed though, people, common people, were allowed to keep their own religion in the OE whereas muslims mostly didn't in Christian European kingdoms...

 

[Falecius]

Please do elaborate if you don't mind.

Portugal, even if as you said Muslims were not accepted as Muslim per se, seemed to to fit the description of a semi-tolerant state.

But I have no idea about Poland. I guess it has something with tolerance towards the Pagans in Prussia?

No, I was mostly thinking about the Lipkas. They are a Muslim group of Tatars who immigrated into Lithuania at the end of the fourteen century and were granted several rights, including the freedom to worship in mosques and appoint their religious authorites, and the right to bear arms. When Lithuania became fully integrated in the PLC, their situation changed for the worse, but AFAIK they always retained some degree of recognition as Muslims. There were some of them fighting with Sobieski at Vienna I think. Even today, in Belarus and Lithuania, and Poland there are communities of local Muslims, usually Lithuanian o Belarusian speaking, with traditional books, mosques, and customs. I've seen some reproduction of their books, in Polish written with Arabic script. That was... strange.
In general, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was unusually tolerant for the time, though through time, the state became increasingly militantly Catholic and towards the end the rights of religious minorities had become a hot issue. In the sixteen century Poland even gave asylum to many Unitarians, who were almost unanimously persecuted in any other Christian country, Catholic and Protestant alike. Later, the Unitarians found Poland increasingly hostile and a number of them flew to the Netherlands.
My point is that Christians and Jews in the Ottoman state, like Muslims, Jews and Protestant in the Polish one, were largely free to worship and recognized as a group, albeit the state officially embraced a different faith, and many high level government posts were off limits. However, in the Ottoman system you could convert and go ahead, indeed many of the higher officials were converts (often forced ones). In Iberia, EVEN IF you converted, you had a stigma.

 

[Yataghan]

Bosnians converted mainly because they were persecuted by other christians for bogomilism and they saw that as a revenge, kinda like, we arent good enough christians, guess what we arent gonna be christians at all..... and yeah did i forget to mention we will rule you for next 500 years

 

[Simreeve]

No, I was mostly thinking about the Lipkas. They are a Muslim group of Tatars who immigrated into Lithuania at the end of the fourteen century and were granted several rights, including the freedom to worship in mosques and appoint their religious authorites, and the right to bear arms. When Lithuania became fully integrated in the PLC, their situation changed for the worse, but AFAIK they always retained some degree of recognition as Muslims. There were some of them fighting with Sobieski at Vienna I think. Even today, in Belarus and Lithuania, and Poland there are communities of local Muslims, usually Lithuanian o Belarusian speaking, with traditional books, mosques, and customs. I've seen some reproduction of their books, in Polish written with Arabic script. That was... strange.

I've read that at least one of them was accepted into the SS.

In the sixteen century Poland even gave asylum to many Unitarians, who were almost unanimously persecuted in any other Christian country, Catholic and Protestant alike. Later, the Unitarians found Poland increasingly hostile and a number of them flew to the Netherlands.

Unitarianism was also tolerated in Transylvania around that time, when that principality was a Ottoman vassal and thus before the Hapsburgs got heir hands in it: In fact it apparently enjoyed equal status in law there as an 'official religion' alongside Roman Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism... and that was a higher status than was held by Greek Orthodoxy, even though the latter probably had more followers within the country.

 

[Marko]

Bosnians converted mainly because they were persecuted by other christians for bogomilism and they saw that as a revenge, kinda like, we arent good enough christians, guess what we arent gonna be christians at all..... and yeah did i forget to mention we will rule you for next 500 years

That is just a speculation. As far as sources show Bosanski Krstjani (Bosnian Christians) as they called themselves were never a majority religion and quite probably only connected to the ruling elites. Though foreign powers, especially Hungary used their presence to justify their political rather than religiously motivated campaigns. Also calling chosen path bogo(u)milism is not correct and is a result of romantic historians of late 19th century.

 

[Falecius]

I've read that at least one of them was accepted into the SS.
Unitarianism was also tolerated in Transylvania around that time, when that principality was a Ottoman vassal and thus before the Hapsburgs got heir hands in it: In fact it apparently enjoyed equal status in law there as an 'official religion' alongside Roman Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism... and that was a higher status than was held by Greek Orthodoxy, even though the latter probably had more followers within the country.

Did not know about things, thank you.
The SS thing is not really so surprising after all. Handschar, I guess?
There was a Lipka Tatar who was a very high ranking general under the Tsar, btw.

 

[Simreeve]

The SS thing is not really so surprising after all. Handschar, I guess?

I'm fairly sure that it was a unit raised nearer to his home, instead. A quick check on Wikipedia reveals that at least two SS units of Latvians and one of Galicians were formed, so presumably one or another of those...

EDIT: Actually, thinking further about it, that person whose story I vaguely recall reading might not have been a genuine Lithuanian Tatar after all... IIRC, now, he was in fact a Polish Jew who knew enough about them to pass as one and chose to do so in order to avoid being rounded-up for slave labour &/or extermination.

 

[el grapadura]

That is just a speculation. As far as sources show Bosanski Krstjani (Bosnian Christians) as they called themselves were never a majority religion and quite probably only connected to the ruling elites. Though foreign powers, especially Hungary used their presence to justify their political rather than religiously motivated campaigns. Also calling chosen path bogo(u)milism is not correct and is a result of romantic historians of late 19th century.

That's correct, there is no clear evidence that the medieval Bosnian church such as it was had any links to the bogomilism that originated in Bulgaria.

 

[Mikestone8]

The difficulties are that during the period identity was in many ways tied to religion more than ethnicity, thus you had instances where the Orthodox Christians living in Anatolia were considered Greek and the Muslim population in the Southern Balkans were considered Turks (though more in the 20th century) or just as 'Muslims' in general.

As I once saw it put in a book "A Bulgar boy is taken from his home and trained as a Janissary. Later, he marries a Bulgar girl; but he is now a Turk, and his descendants from that day to this are classed as Turks".