Why Did Bosnia and Albania Convert When No One Else Did?

[HeWhoIsMe]

I doubt there were too many Muslims living in the Morea, for instance.

Actually one of the worst recorded atrocities carried out by the Greek forces in Morea during the Revolution was the massacre of Tripolitsa(modern day Tripolis in the Pelopponese). It took place when Greek revolutionary fighters broke through the fortifications and managed to swamp the inner city, overunning Ottoman defenses.

Reports survive to this day that the entire Muslim community of Tripolis was wiped out. Thousands of people. Also the Greek revolutionaries massacred the prosperous Tripolitsan Jewish community during the same event which led to its extinction from the face of the Earth. Jews were consistently treated as bad, or even worse, than local Turks because they, understandably, preferred the maintenance of Ottoman Imperial authority over the institution of Greek national one.

About Jewish Salonica. If you visit today you will hardly notice there ever was a thriving Jewish community. No more than a thousand people remain in Salonica and when local left-wing/liberal mayor mr. Mpoutaris suggested that Salonica should officially be named the "Mother of Israel" and a program initiated to facilitate visiting of the city by Israeli tourists, he was booed almost unanimously by the opposition and people of his own team. Sad...just sad...

 

[Chairwoman Roxelana]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=88367

 

[DrakeRlugia]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=88367

I was trying to find that map again. Thanks for the link. It really does shatter the image that the Balkans were wholly Christian and oppressed by the Turks. The Ottoman Balkans really were a patchwork. There were Christian Pluralities in Greece and portions of Bulgaria, of course, but lots of Muslims too. It all changed when then Christians began to become independent though... the massacres in Greece, evictions from Bulgaria, ect.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

Actually one of the worst recorded atrocities carried out by the Greek forces in Morea during the Revolution was the massacre of Tripolitsa(modern day Tripolis in the Pelopponese). It took place when Greek revolutionary fighters broke through the fortifications and managed to swamp the inner city, overunning Ottoman defenses.

Reports survive to this day that the entire Muslim community of Tripolis was wiped out. Thousands of people. Also the Greek revolutionaries massacred the prosperous Tripolitsan Jewish community during the same event which led to its extinction from the face of the Earth. Jews were consistently treated as bad, or even worse, than local Turks because they, understandably, preferred the maintenance of Ottoman Imperial authority over the institution of Greek national one.

About Jewish Salonica. If you visit today you will hardly notice there ever was a thriving Jewish community. No more than a thousand people remain in Salonica and when local left-wing/liberal mayor mr. Mpoutaris suggested that Salonica should officially be named the "Mother of Israel" and a program initiated to facilitate visiting of the city by Israeli tourists, he was booed almost unanimously by the opposition and people of his own team. Sad...just sad...

Yeah, it was a bad issue during the independence wars, but I'm pretty sure the Greeks were in the majority within the kingdom established iafter the Greek War of Independence. I also doubt Jews were the only ones who wished the Turks; the common Greek peasants did too, as the Bavarocracy that replaced Ottoman rule levied even harsher taxes upon the people, making them even more impoverished...

 

[BlondieBC]

About Jewish Salonica. If you visit today you will hardly notice there ever was a thriving Jewish community. No more than a thousand people remain in Salonica and when local left-wing/liberal mayor mr. Mpoutaris suggested that Salonica should officially be named the "Mother of Israel" and a program initiated to facilitate visiting of the city by Israeli tourists, he was booed almost unanimously by the opposition and people of his own team. Sad...just sad...

It is truly sad. Of all the cities that could have been Free Cities under the League of Nations, the "Free City of Saloniki" had a lot of appeal. Five countries wanted control of the port, and a free, neutral city would have been a nice solution. Also, by now it would have 500 years of Jewish majority population, and might provide an example that a Jewish state does not have to be at perpetual war with its neighbors.

 

[Dementor]

I was trying to find that map again. Thanks for the link. It really does shatter the image that the Balkans were wholly Christian and oppressed by the Turks. The Ottoman Balkans really were a patchwork. There were Christian Pluralities in Greece and portions of Bulgaria, of course, but lots of Muslims too. It all changed when then Christians began to become independent though... the massacres in Greece, evictions from Bulgaria, ect.

There are many problems with this map (apart from the fact that it's not detailed enough). Most importantly, the only region where an census concerning ethnicity was held was in the Danube province. In the other regions, the ethnic composition was estimated by extrapolating the results of censuses held after 1878, which makes the results rather dubious. And of course this doesn't explain how they could estimate the ethnic composition in Eastern Rumelia, which wasn't under Ottoman control.
Also, Ottoman censuses tended to underestimate the Christian population. For example, the Bulgarians in the whole of the Danube province were counted as 1.1 million, while only a few years later there were about 1.35 million in the smaller Bulgarian principality.
Most historians seem to think that the Muslims in Bulgaria were about a third of the total, mostly concentrated in the northeast (which seems to be supported by maps made by Western observers). So it was really a case of most of the region having a Christian majority, with a significant part having a Muslim majority.

 

[Dementor]

And to answer the original question, a lot of other Christians did convert. For example there are up to 300 thousand Bulgarian Muslims in Bulgaria and probably a large part of the Turks are also descended from converts. Also, many of the Greeks in Crete converted to Islam.

 

[Iori]

Also, many of the Greeks in Crete converted to Islam.

Yeah, I was gonna mention them, but forgot.

Incidentally most of the Cretan Muslims (who maintain their Greco-Cretan identity even today) now live in Syria.

 

[elkarlo]

Yeah, I was gonna mention them, but forgot.

Incidentally most of the Cretan Muslims (who maintain their Greco-Cretan identity even today) now live in Syria.

Didn't that also happen when The Byzantines reclaimed Crete? They ended up having to resettle it?

 

[Iori]

Didn't that also happen when The Byzantines reclaimed Crete? They ended up having to resettle it?

I don't know, though Crete was'nt resettled in this case, rather the Muslim Cretans were a minority who were expelled/left.

 

[elkarlo]

I don't know, though Crete was'nt resettled in this case, rather the Muslim Cretans were a minority who were expelled/left.

I want to say that Armenians were encouraged to settle in Crete. Been too long since I read about that though. Lay down some learning on me.

 

[Iori]

I want to say that Armenians were encouraged to settle in Crete. Been too long since I read about that though.

Lay down some learning on me.

Well, Europe from about 1100-1750 is one of my blind areas, but as for the Cretan muslims, Crete saw a high conversion rate during the late 17th century to early 19th century to the point where the Cretan Muslims population were basically almost all the descendants of the native Cretans who'd convereted by 1900.

Throughout the early and mid 19th century their was a small amount of emigration over the years due to occasional flare-ups of sectarian violence, however starting in the late 19th century, and especially from the late 1890's onward their was a significant amount of emigration by the Cretan Muslims, however even then a good amount remained and it was'nt until 1923 and the population exchanges that the remnants of the once large population were forcefully expelled.

While they moved to lots of places the majority of them generally moved to Southern Turkey, Northern Egypt and Syria.

 

[elkarlo]

Well, Europe from about 1100-1750 is one of my blind areas, but as for the Cretan muslims, Crete saw a high conversion rate during the late 17th century to early 19th century to the point where the Cretan Muslims population were basically almost all the descendants of the native Cretans who'd convereted by 1900.

Throughout the early and mid 19th century their was a small amount of emigration over the years due to occasional flare-ups of sectarian violence, however starting in the late 19th century, and especially from the late 1890's onward their was a significant amount of emigration by the Cretan Muslims, however even then a good amount remained and it was'nt until 1923 and the population exchanges that the remnants of the once large population were forcefully expelled.

While they moved to lots of places in the majority of them generally moved to Southern Turkey, Northern Egypt and Syria.

Knew about Ottoman Crete, but that is kinda easy to find out. Kinda interesting how in some areas, the natives convert(Crete). In others, it takes colonization plus conversion(Bosnia), and others, it never sticks, like the Morea, Christan Syria/Lebanon.

 

[Iori]

Knew about Ottoman Crete, but that is kinda easy to find out. Kinda interesting how in some areas, the natives convert(Crete). In others, it takes colonization plus conversion(Bosnia), and others, it never sticks, like the Morea, Christan Syria/Lebanon.

If the Ottomans had actually tried to convert people it's likely that Christians would have been the minority pretty much everywhere they ruled, however in general the Ottomans never tried to convert the populations and in quite a few cases prohibited it/efforts to do so.

Anoher reason to that Christianity fared so well is the Ottomans actually established/brough back Christian institutions that had since been disestablished or abandoned.

 

[Horgus]

If the Ottomans had actually tried to convert people it's likely that Christians would have been the minority pretty much everywhere they ruled, however in general the Ottomans never tried to convert the populations and in quite a few cases prohibited it/efforts to do so.

Anoher reason to that Christianity fared so well is the Ottomans actually established/brough back Christian institutions that had since been disestablished or abandoned.

Well this is probably also part of the reason that the Ottomans ruled for as long as they did in the more far flung parts of their empire. One of the advantages they had (that the Byzantines and other Christian powers did not have, by the way) was that they were not attempting to enforce one Christian message to the exclusion of others.

Unlike the Byzantines, or say, Crusading elements, the Ottomans had less say in promoting a particular Christian element.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

If the Ottomans had actually tried to convert people it's likely that Christians would have been the minority pretty much everywhere they ruled, however in general the Ottomans never tried to convert the populations and in quite a few cases prohibited it/efforts to do so.

Anoher reason to that Christianity fared so well is the Ottomans actually established/brough back Christian institutions that had since been disestablished or abandoned.

No, if they actually tried to do that, they would've destabilized their empire, particularly early on before the conquest of the Mamluks when the overwhelming majority of the Empire's population was Christian.

 

[Iori]

No, if they actually tried to do that, they would've destabilized their empire, particularly early on before the conquest of the Mamluks when the overwhelming majority of the Empire's population was Christian.

I don't mean try as in going around forcing people to convert, but rather lifting the limitations and offering major incentives.

 

[Dementor]

I don't mean try as in going around forcing people to convert, but rather lifting the limitations and offering major incentives.

There were major incentives, like not being second class subjects. Why do you think so many Christians did convert? As for limitations, that was hardly a constant policy of the Ottoman Empire.

If the Ottomans had actually tried to convert people it's likely that Christians would have been the minority pretty much everywhere they ruled, however in general the Ottomans never tried to convert the populations and in quite a few cases prohibited it/efforts to do so.

Never is a very strong word. The Ottomans certainly converted by force; you do know what Janissaries are, right?

Anoher reason to that Christianity fared so well is the Ottomans actually established/brough back Christian institutions that had since been disestablished or abandoned.

How exactly did Christianity fare well in the Ottoman Empire? That's a strange claim to make, considering the great decline of the number of Christians in the Empire.
Also, the Ottomans actually destroyed many Christian institutions, for example the Bulgarian patriarchate. Though in this way the Constantinople patriarchate was strengthened, but it's hardly true for the whole Orthodox Church.

 

[Esopo]

The ottomans never tried to convert? this is beyond ridicolous.

 

[HeWhoIsMe]

It is truly sad. Of all the cities that could have been Free Cities under the League of Nations, the "Free City of Saloniki" had a lot of appeal. Five countries wanted control of the port, and a free, neutral city would have been a nice solution. Also, by now it would have 500 years of Jewish majority population, and might provide an example that a Jewish state does not have to be at perpetual war with its neighbors.

We're drifting a bit off-topic but yeah...it's an interesting point you make nonetheless...

What made it really interesting was that it was already a layered established society within not only Salonica but Northern Greece in general. Though of course many of the local owners of businesses and industries were Jewish(edit: And don't forget that Salonica was till about the 60's way more industrialised than Athens/Attica had been the past 400 years.), there was a very populous middle-class Jewish community, and an even more populous lower-class one...Jewish people of all walks of life called this place home...and Ladino was a very useful language to be able to speak if you were visiting...

To be fair though, even after Salonica was annexed back in 1912, the Jewish community managed to maintain its influence over Salonican affairs till the Nazis "relocated" them in the 40's. Though it'd be lying to say they prospered they were at least not openly discriminated against. But I do know for a fact that there was a "Jewish" party in local elections and prominent local Jews were elected into the city council consistently, many of them receiving the majority of their votes from their Orthodox constituents.

I mean, and that is funny if you think about it, during the years prior to WW2, under Metaxas' regime, when a sort of Fascist Youth was established, there was consideration to allow Jews to join......somehow that didn't happen though...

Also another interesting point is that when the local proletariat had radicalized itself and local disgruntled industrial workers started actively voicing their demands towards the industrialists, among the most prominent figures on both sides of the fence were Jewish...the Jewish industrialists owned the flourishing textile industry and the Jewish industrial workers were the ones that despised them most for it...

All in all, I still hear all those stories from survivors and Salonica in the 40's strikes me as a much better place to live in than Salonica in 2012...