abc123
Banned
This.
The only front where Croats fought well was against Italy, because they were aware that Italy want's Dalmatia and Istra.
Why did Austria-Hungary have such a terrible WWI record?
- Thread starter Snake Featherston
- Start date
This.
The only front where Croats fought well was against Italy, because they were aware that Italy want's Dalmatia and Istra.
BlondieBC
Banned
Austria-Hungary spent a lower % of GDP on the military than other major powers. It was not lack of potential tax revenue that was the issue, it was the Hungarian parliament holding the military budget hostage.
A question, how much could the Austro hungarian army be improved if they spent more money for the military and have better generals than hötzendorf was and a more modern artillery and weaponry, maybe the burstyn tank and armored vehicles could be an advantage too. i think they would be able to finish serbia faster than OTL, they might also manage to defeat the italians and the russians with german help.
Well the languages issue was unfortunately an Empire-wide systemic problem so if you want to fix that then you need a much earlier point of departure to introduce some form of lingua franca. On the artillery front IIRC they actually had in place a plan to update and increase the number of guns in each unit but it would of been 1915/1916 before that happened so you just have to find a way to start that a bit earlier. More guns however would of course mean that they'll go through their supply of shells even faster than in our timeline, something that happened to all the Powers thanks to their underestimating the amounts likely to be used, so you need to increase possible production levels so that they could be kicked into high gear. Not a tank but the Austro-Hungarians did have a couple of interesting possibilities with armoured cars but they never found much favour with officialdom so nothing much ever came of them. If you could find a way to introduce something such as the Romfell armoured car a couple of years ealier then that could throw up some real possibilities, not least because they carried a wireless morse telegraph which could really improve things with regards to communication of the situation on the ground and overall command and control.
2.5% in 1906, 3.5% in 1912. I do not contradict you to that regard, Kakania's armed Forces would have desperately needed more funding, Especially when it came to preparing general Mobilisation (there weren't Even enough Boots and uniforms for the called up Men).
But: the Habsburgs had a Long history of Deficit spending and bankruptcys. Also fiscally, they couldn't compete with the Other Powers. Funneling Money Away from Other means was Even more hurtful in Austria-hungary which needed to develop its Infrastructure still more than e.g. Germany.
Ca. 100 commands were taught, enough for mindless Drilling and perhaps maneuvres, but unfortunately, since ca. 1792, war had Become more complicated than that. Basically, in Order to survive, Austria needed bettet Education, and then a bettet Army. The imperative should have been: stay the f*** out of any war- at Best since 1850.
abc123
Banned
That's right, IIRC evrey recruit had to know at least basic commands in German, and all officers knew German anyway... Also, regiments were divided by language, and higher echalons were fluent in German anyway...
Norman Stone makes a couple of interesting points in The Eastern Front.
1) He mentions an enquiry by Archduke Eugen into supposed disaffection among Slav troops. It's main conclusions were
a) Efficient officers seemed able to get good performance from their men regardless of ethnicity.
b) Poor or mediocre officers were very prone to use "disaffection" as an alibi, blaming it for problems which had more to do with the officer's own inefficiency.
2) Due to the KuK army's heavy losses, an increasing number of junior officers and NCOs had to be seconded to it from the German army, and by the end of 1916 these made up two fifths of the total number. According to Stone, it was common talk that KuK soldiers, of whatever ethnicity, fought better under this "Reichdeutsche" leadership than under KuK officers/NCOs. If we assume that the German ones were a tad more efficient, this would seem to corroborate Eugen's findings.
1) He mentions an enquiry by Archduke Eugen into supposed disaffection among Slav troops. It's main conclusions were
a) Efficient officers seemed able to get good performance from their men regardless of ethnicity.
b) Poor or mediocre officers were very prone to use "disaffection" as an alibi, blaming it for problems which had more to do with the officer's own inefficiency.
2) Due to the KuK army's heavy losses, an increasing number of junior officers and NCOs had to be seconded to it from the German army, and by the end of 1916 these made up two fifths of the total number. According to Stone, it was common talk that KuK soldiers, of whatever ethnicity, fought better under this "Reichdeutsche" leadership than under KuK officers/NCOs. If we assume that the German ones were a tad more efficient, this would seem to corroborate Eugen's findings.
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intresting, so Austria needs more competent officers aswell. btw, does anyone know how south africa deals with the language problem in the army ? I think that the multinationality of the empire was not such a big problem, the main problem was badly equipped units and the insufficient industralization.
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The trouble with improving the officer corps is that you need some sort of a war or at least a low intensity conflict where competent people can hone their skills and incompetent can be weeded out. KuK had no real conflict in decades, the last being war against Prussia where they were handed their head on a plate. This scared them enough to shun away from the war.
There is actually a solution for them that would give them some oportunity to practice their military skills in intervening period - obtaining a colonial possession.
There they could rotate their troops in and out, perhaps fight in some war against native and generally get some recent military experience. It is not ideal, for sure, as fighting natives cannot really compare to fighting industrialized powers, but as a source of military experience sure beats building roads and railways.
Let's see:
By purchase, but I do not know if they have the money.
As a compensation by Prussia, but extracted from some other powers, say Spain - far fetched.
Bribe from France to take part in Crimean war if it goes good and then turns badly for Allies - possible.
Taking under protection something from the Ottomans in addition to Bosnia and that something might be in Middle East - most obvious and plausible possibility? Some province in China - as a part of them taking part in quelling Boxer rebbelion?
Not impossible, simple not interested they had their couple of occasion for getting one and say that was a waste of money (not interely incorrect as analysis) and declined. Take in consideration that their navy is really underdeveloped and the only port facility of some real value is Trieste and as WWI demonstrated the A-H can be blockaded simply closing the Adriatic so this strategic situation is not a real incentive for some colonial effort heavily dependent of sea trade
In the long run can be counterproductive, as the officer will learn the wrong lesson in fighting a modern war and honestly in a case like this there is the case of the creation of a huge division of the officier corps between the homeland one and the colonial one because many will think of the oversea deployment as a punishment or a backwater place where your carreer possibility are slim at least paragonated at the homeland where you can get all the contact you need without dirty yourself with the native; instead the colonial one will get the impression that the people at home make carreer simply by know as dance instead as to fight or simply be a lot jealous for the better live condition and 'respect' they get.
The main problem is that the Hasburg failed to create a proper national feeling for the empire, they were the teutonic equivalent of the Romanoff, still thinking that they were in the wrong century.
abc123
Banned
Considering that their country had 11 ethnic groups, how could they develop national feeling? Especially with 2 groups ruling over other 9...
No wonder that they based their country on pre-modern concepts, because in modern-era they were outdated...
BlondieBC
Banned
Yes, A-H is weaker than Germany, USA or UK, and the A-H could have had a vastly better military. Not enough to beat Russia one one on one, but much, much more competitive. I tended to look at the old artillery and lack of ammo, and your list of issues is also true. So are the command issues. So are the ethnic issues. A-H was fortunate its main enemy, Russia, had many of the same issues. An A-H that has to fight a German or French quality Army has some additional challenging issues.
The spending levels are so low for A-H, that they get a huge bang for the buck on spending. Just small things like Lviv and Pvov only having modern guns would do wonders. Or for that matter, having another major fortress city to anchor the eastern front. While it would be a large amount of gold to pay for it, when spread over 15-20 years, the spending is quite manageable. Or just adding a few more corps. Each Germany army cost about 250 million German marks per year, so to add a extra A-H corps is probably 50 million marks per year, or one extra mark per person per year. (Note: I am assuming a bit cheaper due to being less heavily equipped than the German Army). For less than 5 marks per year per person, we can have another full Army with modern equipment in Galicia. So even when the idiot Conrad looks at his two plans (WP Russia, WP Balkans) and makes the wrong choice, it the east is ok. And if he takes WP Russia and chooses the send the 2nd east, he has two extra armies to the east, and things go much better. Just think of Wiking Conrad turns east, but with another Army pushing to cutoff west Poland. (Note: Yes, If A-H is stronger, it is likely Russia goes on a defensive WP or just backs down.) And the 250 million marks greatly exaggerates the costs. There was chronic unemployment and immigration to other Continents from Galacia, so the spending on wages and locally produced supplies will act much like a development program. I don't know where the extra guns would be produced at, but this also likely either stimulates either the A-H or German economy.
Now you are right that infrastructure is also a good thing to invest in, many things that help the economy (more RR, Haber Bosch plant - fertilizer was desperately needed prewar, Hydro electric dams) will also boost military performance indirectly.