Why couldnt Japan defeat China in the Second-Sino Japanese war? Why didnt China sued for peace?

The victories of Japan over China were beyond impressive, way, way better than Nazi Germany victories in the Soviet Union.

They captured the capital, nearly all important cities, won victory after victory and captured the Wuhan which was the political, economic and military core of China.

Yet Chiang still refused to ask for terms. Why? What would it has taken for Japan to win?
 

Hardial

Banned
As long as Sichuan remained free, and the Allies remained committed to maintaining a supply line and defeating Japan, China had no reason to surrender.

A Japanese victory would require a military conquest of Sichuan (unlikely) and non-intervention by the Allies. Britain giving up is plausible, as they're a bit distracted by the Germans. But America has a very strong China lobby and will intervene to protect its interests even without Pearl Harbor eventually. In short, a Japanese victory would require them to have much more limited war aims that don't conflict as much with the interests of the United States.
 
The moment the Japanese commited atrocities on the Chinese (namely the Rape of Nanking) there was no way the Chinese would surrender. The Chinese would have preferred to die fighting then willingly surrender to a nation that raped China. If Japan were lenient conquerors and treated the Chinese as equal then maybe the Chinese would have surrendered but otherwise there was no way.
 
Yet Chiang still refused to ask for terms. Why? What would it has taken for Japan to win?
What would be the point of asking for terms?

The Japanese had attacked China twice without provocation in less than ten years. What would they gain by giving up now? Another attack in three years most likely. Probably less.
 
The victories of Japan over China were beyond impressive, way, way better than Nazi Germany victories in the Soviet Union.

They captured the capital, nearly all important cities, won victory after victory and captured the Wuhan which was the political, economic and military core of China.

Yet Chiang still refused to ask for terms. Why? What would it has taken for Japan to win?

As a side note, various Chinese factions did sue for peace. In addition to the most famous (or infamous) puppet government and associated army in Manchuria, the Japanese sponsored at least two other large scale Vlasov type armies.

These armies consisted of warlord troops and even nationalist aligned units whose commanders had personal disputes with Chiang, opposed his scorched earth tactics (though Chiang's orders made military sense, they had little regard for the suffering of millions of Chinese peasants), or whose commanders had concluded that there was no military solution to the war and that further resistance was disproportionately destroying China.

Others felt that Chinese communists were the larger threat. Though these Vlasov troops were usually not willing to fight offensively, they were willing perform limited front line defensive duties and internal security functions etc.

Also, though Chiang did refuse to discuss peace terms with the Japanese, he was not against implementing mutually beneficial local "gentleman's agreements" with the Japanese regarding military operations. U.S. advisors and observers noted that Chiang seemed to be preserving most of his troops and most of the U.S. military aid for the post war showdown with the Communists. Thus, Chiang could be slow to take the offensive against Japanese units that were still functioning.
 
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Couldnt the Japanese had allied with the nationalists against communists or viceversa in exchange of China becoming an imperial colony?

These 2 groups hated each other enough, that they might prefer a vassal China over an independent China under the rule of that group.

I remember Chiang refering to Japan as a skin disease while the communists were a heart disease.
 

Hardial

Banned
Couldnt the Japanese had allied with the nationalists against communists or viceversa in exchange of China becoming an imperial colony?

These 2 groups hated each other enough, that they might prefer a vassal China over an independent China under the rule of that group.

I remember Chiang refering to Japan as a skin disease while the communists were a heart disease.

The primary goal of the Japanese invasion in the first place was to destroy Chinese nationalism, which the Japanese saw as much of an existential threat to their plans of subjugating China as communism.
 

Ian_W

Banned
Couldnt the Japanese had allied with the nationalists against communists or viceversa in exchange of China becoming an imperial colony?

These 2 groups hated each other enough, that they might prefer a vassal China over an independent China under the rule of that group.

I remember Chiang refering to Japan as a skin disease while the communists were a heart disease.

As you were told earlier "What would be the point of asking for terms?

The Japanese had attacked China twice without provocation in less than ten years. What would they gain by giving up now? Another attack in three years most likely. Probably less."
 
Couldnt the Japanese had allied with the nationalists against communists or viceversa in exchange of China becoming an imperial colony?
They did. They just were not able to do it at the national level in China. The Japanese created two or more regional alternative right wing governments for occupied areas of China. One of the regional governments even used insignia that looked remarkably similar to Chiang's. In the end though, Chiang refused to capitulate to the Japanese (though he was willing to come to unofficial "understandings").
 
Since the first Sino Japanese war every time China yielded to Japan far from appease them it only encouraged them for more. The Manchurian incident demonstrated that Japan ultimate goal was to dismember China province by province. If they had surrendered Chinese would have become serfs at best slaves at worst.
 
Japan did Not have defined objectives. It probably could not have ruled the whole of China bur it had no other possible definition of victory
 
The victories of Japan over China were beyond impressive, way, way better than Nazi Germany victories in the Soviet Union.

They captured the capital, nearly all important cities, won victory after victory and captured the Wuhan which was the political, economic and military core of China.

Yet Chiang still refused to ask for terms. Why? What would it has taken for Japan to win?
I'll echo what others have said, and also chip in that China wasn't as dismal as a lot of western popular histories make it out to be. Between early 1939 and Operation Ichi-Go in late 1944 the frontline was largely static and the National Revolutionary Army even achieved some respectable victories over the IJA. For Chiang the war was winnable, and as impressive as Operation Ichi-Go looks on a map it did little more than overextend the IJA.
 
Couldnt the Japanese had allied with the nationalists against communists or viceversa in exchange of China becoming an imperial colony?

These 2 groups hated each other enough, that they might prefer a vassal China over an independent China under the rule of that group.

I remember Chiang refering to Japan as a skin disease while the communists were a heart disease.
This is an army that carried out the Rape of Nanking. Do you really think the IJA was interested in alliance?
 
Japan did Not have defined objectives. It probably could not have ruled the whole of China bur it had no other possible definition of victory

I wonder whether the Japanese did make a peace offer (mind you: while they were still winning. So before December 7, 1941), and how the Chinese reacted to it.
 

elkarlo

Banned
This is an army that carried out the Rape of Nanking. Do you really think the IJA was interested in alliance?

Indeed, the IJA was without any real political leadership. Which means that besides Manchuria, the invasion of China had no real long term goals. They couldnt win, as they made themselves hated, and had no path to victory.

Should have stayed with just Manchuria, and maybe Heinan island.
 
The victories of Japan over China were beyond impressive, way, way better than Nazi Germany victories in the Soviet Union.

They captured the capital, nearly all important cities, won victory after victory and captured the Wuhan which was the political, economic and military core of China.

Yet Chiang still refused to ask for terms. Why? What would it has taken for Japan to win?

Did Chiang ever have authority to surrender? On a good day he couldn’t get half of his army to do what he says. If he outright surrendered he would lose what limited control of China he had. The Communists and other Nationalist leaders would denounce him and carry on their separate war. Somebody had to be the nominal leader of the amorphous resistance against the invader and Chiang was that guy.

Also the Second Sino-Japanese War has to be put in context of a much longer conflict with Japan going back to the first war. Japan had never stopped trying to expand control of China. Their mistake was giving up on the salami slicing strategy and going for total conquest, which meant little as the Japanese physically only occupied the cities and the railroads in between. Not even Chiang and the Nationalists had totally conquered China.
 
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The victories of Japan over China were beyond impressive, way, way better than Nazi Germany victories in the Soviet Union.

They captured the capital, nearly all important cities, won victory after victory and captured the Wuhan which was the political, economic and military core of China.

Yet Chiang still refused to ask for terms. Why? What would it has taken for Japan to win?

Because China is too big. As such, the Japanese are unlikely to advance further as their supply lines are overextended and there are Chinese(mostly Communist) saboteurs behind their front line, wrecking essential resources for the Japanese and they would have to pull back some troops from the front lines to prevent sabotages from happening.

Secondly, Chiang had the Americans supply his army with much needed military equipment such as Sherman Tanks. I don't see him suing for peace so he and the KMT(also including the CCP) would continue resisting the Japanese.
 
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I wonder, could China be used as an example of what would happen even if Nazi Germany crushed the red army, which would mean that no matter how much they conquered, they would still had been completely fucked in the end because of the size of Russia, and victory was impossible?
 
I wonder, could China be used as an example of what would happen even if Nazi Germany crushed the red army, which would mean that no matter how much they conquered, they would still had been completely fucked in the end because of the size of Russia, and victory was impossible?

In addition to the vast size and population of China, the Japanese alienated most of the population against them and gave them the motivation to fight on.

A less brutal occupation, limited goals and divide and rule tactics might have given them some hope of a favourable compromise peace - but the Japanese (and Nazis in the USSR) weren't interested in any of that and stupidly and arrogantly wanted to take everything.
 
A less brutal occupation, limited goals and divide and rule tactics might have given them some hope of a favourable compromise peace - but the Japanese (and Nazis in the USSR) weren't interested in any of that and stupidly and arrogantly wanted to take everything.

Agreed.
 
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