Why can't Japan conquer Persia

Can Japan conquer Persia in the 17th century?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 2.0%
  • No

    Votes: 194 98.0%

  • Total voters
    198
Sure, and Belgium hadn't even existed as a country for 50 years before they got Congo. My point is, crazy things happen. They don't have to attack Persia right away. But it's not entirely impossible long term.

Few things are entirely impossible.

But the issue is that every step along the way from Toyotomi's Japan to Japan conquering Persia requires ridiculous amounts of implausibility and it's clear that the people arguing for jt have a very tenuous grasp of, or possibly a wilful misunderstanding of the economic, logistic, and geographical realities of Asia at the time.
 
Sure, and Belgium hadn't even existed as a country for 50 years before they got Congo. My point is, crazy things happen. They don't have to attack Persia right away. But it's not entirely impossible long term.
I'm pretty sure that Japan can try for the entirety of the 17th century without success.
 
Few things are entirely impossible.

But the issue is that every step along the way from Toyotomi's Japan to Japan conquering Persia requires ridiculous amounts of implausibility and it's clear that the people arguing for jt have a very tenuous grasp of, or possibly a wilful misunderstanding of the economic, logistic, and geographical realities of Asia at the time.
And I am challenging the actual difficulties of this.

Similar to the way the Portuguese took their place in the Indies country trade, I believe the japanese could insert them there. There is the incentive of being less dependant on the Portuguese for luxury goods as well as recognising the value of commerce. Hardly a major step given the very important Japanese communities already present in the East Indies, in Vietnam at Danang for example.

The Indian Ocean is at this precise point in a state of turmoil that could be exploited with the right technology. That technology can be taken from the Dutch or Portuguese, similar to the way the N'Guyen lords set up their own high quality cannon foundry in Vietnam thanks to Joao de la Cruz, a Portuguese metis.

More than a massive state expedition, I'm actually more thinking in parallel to the Norman Kingdoms of the XIth century Mediterranean: hard boiled warriors who wanted a spot in the sun and were able to use local divisions, state decay and superior tech to create their own fiefs
 
More than a massive state expedition, I'm actually more thinking in parallel to the Norman Kingdoms of the XIth century Mediterranean: hard boiled warriors who wanted a spot in the sun and were able to use local divisions, state decay and superior tech to create their own fiefs
Well, I imagine more like state action.
It was state action that replaced the disunited sengoku daimyo with the massive Momoyama period armies. The huge stone castles and tall towers were also an innovation of Momoyama period.
Uniting the scattered wako bands preying on coasts and trade into an united navy that conquers China might also be a Momoyama period innovation.
 
Why can't Toyotomi conquer Persia? Mongolia is as far away from Persia as Japan but Genghis Khan won very easily

Mongolia is 4,000 km from Persia.

Japan is 7,000 km from Persia.

That's airline distance. There is a direct land route from Mongolia to Persia, via Dxungaria and Turkestan.

The direct route from Japan to Persia crosses China, Tibet, and Afghanistan.

Sea passage is possible, but the route is over 17,000 km, through multiple chokepoints.

Fuggedaboudit.
 
And I am challenging the actual difficulties of this.

Similar to the way the Portuguese took their place in the Indies country trade, I believe the japanese could insert them there. There is the incentive of being less dependant on the Portuguese for luxury goods as well as recognising the value of commerce. Hardly a major step given the very important Japanese communities already present in the East Indies, in Vietnam at Danang for example.

The Indian Ocean is at this precise point in a state of turmoil that could be exploited with the right technology. That technology can be taken from the Dutch or Portuguese, similar to the way the N'Guyen lords set up their own high quality cannon foundry in Vietnam thanks to Joao de la Cruz, a Portuguese metis.

More than a massive state expedition, I'm actually more thinking in parallel to the Norman Kingdoms of the XIth century Mediterranean: hard boiled warriors who wanted a spot in the sun and were able to use local divisions, state decay and superior tech to create their own fiefs

Ok, the point about the luxury trade is the first clear and logical incentive I've seen.

I get how that might incentivise Japanese merchant-adventurers to pursue bluewater navigation in the China seas, and, like the Portuguese and Dutch carve out and defend trading enclaves. This is probably more feasible than centralized state action.

But I'm still not sure how that gets them to the Indian Ocean. Were Indian luxuries in demand in Japan? I was under the impression that the vast majority of the luxury trade was with China.

Also an advantage that the Dutch certainly had was their leveraging of corporate structures to finance their expeditions. This enabled them to outstrip by far Portuguese efforts. I suspect that continued successful trading colonialism needs this sort of commercial sophistication.
 
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Ok, the point about the luxury trade is the first clear and logical incentive I've seen.

I get how that might incentivise Japanese merchant-adventurers to pursue bluewater navigation in the China seas, and, like the Portuguese and Dutch carve out and defend trading enclaves. This is probably more feasible than centralized state action.

But I'm still not sure how that gets them to the Indian Ocean. Were Indian luxuries in demand in Japan? I was under the impression that the vast majority of the luxury trade was with China.

The thing is, once you get in the country trade, it is useful to trade all over. It was a vast network with China wanting silver and spices, Indonesia wanting other spices and stuff from China, etc... The Indonesia+China sea could have been considered a world economy apart but it's good to diversify your investments, with silk and cotton for example.

Japan is a massive market by itself, with 26M people registered in 1721. Since it was still a premodern economy, we can imagine it stayed relatively stable. That means a lot of interior demand for spices and all. After a while, the copper and silver from the mines might not suffice, so you need the country trade, so you need to travel, etc...

Also an advantage that the Dutch certainly had was their leveraging of corporate structures to finance their expeditions. This enabled them to outstrip by far Portuguese efforts. I suspect that continued successful trading colonialism needs this sort of commercial sophistication.

Also completely funneling the Portuguese trade. It's been said that the Dutch corporation was simply an incremental improvement on the Portuguese structure, not something entirely different
 
And I am challenging the actual difficulties of this.

Similar to the way the Portuguese took their place in the Indies country trade, I believe the japanese could insert them there. There is the incentive of being less dependant on the Portuguese for luxury goods as well as recognising the value of commerce. Hardly a major step given the very important Japanese communities already present in the East Indies, in Vietnam at Danang for example.

The Indian Ocean is at this precise point in a state of turmoil that could be exploited with the right technology. That technology can be taken from the Dutch or Portuguese, similar to the way the N'Guyen lords set up their own high quality cannon foundry in Vietnam thanks to Joao de la Cruz, a Portuguese metis.

More than a massive state expedition, I'm actually more thinking in parallel to the Norman Kingdoms of the XIth century Mediterranean: hard boiled warriors who wanted a spot in the sun and were able to use local divisions, state decay and superior tech to create their own fiefs

Hm, I'm reading about it, and it seems the short-lived diaspora died with the imposition of sakoku, taken over by Dutchmen and others. And it seems a significant portion of them were Christian?

Maybe if you can keep the regime from clamping down on Christianity and eventually being taken over by the conservative clans, it would help with the spread of these Japanese enclaves?
 
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