Why are late Roman PoDs so much more common than early or middle Roman PoDs?

raharris1973

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Just curious-

I get the impression Roman PoDs dating from divergences in the 300s or 400s outnumber Roman PoDs from earlier periods.

Have you observed the same thing? If so, why do you think it is the case?
 
Also, the butterflies of late Rome are just much easier to handle than those of early or even middle Rome. So much of post-Roman Europe is defined wholly or in part by Rome's invention or take on various institutions (how do you translate "jurisprudence" into Gaulish? Punic? Vasco-Iberian? - and more importantly, how would the beliefs or systems those words denote actually look in practice?) that any early Rome TL needs a massive amount of description, which can sometimes be indistinguishable from worldbuilding.

If Rome is destroyed during the Latin Wars, say, do Germanic and Slavic peoples still make their Great Migrations? At the same time as OTL, or sometime different - and why? How do the Celts of the west end up, living as they will "on their own terms"? Do Germania and Iberia have anything at all in common, as they did in OTL, or will Europe without a Romanosphere be divided between a bunch of mutually-incomprehensible religions and cultures? These are really, really hard questions to answer, because 1) Rome shaped all of them and how we think of them today, and 2) because the processes in OTL involved literally thousands of big historical events, practically none of which are well-attested in writing. It's all pretty much up to how well the author describes these events in ATL, rather than any kind of plausibility inherent to them - and that's a tough "cross to bear" (note Roman butterfly).

Of course, this isn't just limited to Europe, and big ancient PoDs in China or India would have just the same unrecognisable result. It's just that forums like these, the vast majority of whose membership is European or Euro-American, are far more forgiving to timeline slips there.
 
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It's definitely a thing. There's many interesting early Empire PODs, but you don't see much of them discussed other than "no Jesus/Christianity" or "Rome conquers Germania". You rarely see discussions on alternate (early) Roman emperors or internal Roman politics.

If Rome is destroyed during the Latin Wars, say, do Germanic and Slavic peoples still make their Great Migrations? At the same time as OTL, or sometime different - and why? How do the Celts of the west end up, living as they will "on their own terms"? Do Germania and Iberia have anything at all in common, as they did in OTL, or will Europe without a Romanosphere be divided between a bunch of mutually-incomprehensible religions and cultures? These are really, really hard questions to answer, because 1) Rome shaped all of them and how we think of them today, and 2) because the processes in OTL involved literally thousands of big historical events, practically none of which are well-attested in writing. It's all pretty much up to how well the author describes these events in ATL, rather than any kind of plausibility inherent to them - and that's a tough "cross to bear" (note Roman butterfly).

There's still a history of interaction with Greek culture between the cultures of the Mediterranean, in particular on the the north side of it. Most of them have shared religious background via inherited Proto-Indo-European traditions, and with non-IE cultures borrowed a ton of gods. Interpretatio graeca was a thing after all.
 
There's still a history of interaction with Greek culture between the cultures of the Mediterranean, in particular on the the north side of it. Most of them have shared religious background via inherited Proto-Indo-European traditions, and with non-IE cultures borrowed a ton of gods. Interpretatio graeca was a thing after all.

Sure, but how much of those Greek concepts are going to reach Britannia, Germania, northern Iberia etc.? Is the method just a straight Greekwank, does it include some other "carrier" nation (Etruscan, Carthaginian, etc), or are there other "civilisations" that develop? It's just another massive riddle. Greeks help by being closer to our modern interpretations of the classical world, and even the world in general, but even that is in large part due to Rome. The massive cultural exchange that Rome enabled, and the domination that it enforced, is what we refer to for nearly all European history during and since.

To put it another way: who thinks about Gaul when they talk about Athens?
 
Because at the end of the day nobody cares about X ruling between year A to year B instead of Y that IOTL did, people tend to care about geopolitics and stuff like alternative languages or religions.
 
Because at the end of the day nobody cares about X ruling between year A to year B instead of Y that IOTL did, people tend to care about geopolitics and stuff like alternative languages or religions.

Although the primer might lead to changes in the latter, as in a situation when Constantine loses against one of his opponents.
 
I don't think we have a lack of early Imperial PODs, so to the OP I don't think so. Unless you only count threads from the last three months, in which case I guess so
 
Just curious-

I get the impression Roman PoDs dating from divergences in the 300s or 400s outnumber Roman PoDs from earlier periods.

Have you observed the same thing? If so, why do you think it is the case?

I’ve often had similar thoughts thoughts about th Roman Legions. From the time of the Punic Wars it was clear that the Roman Republic was going to be the dominant power in the Mediterranean and the Legions were a force the be reckoned with, so why is it that nobody tried to devolve a tactic that could beat the Roman maniple system?
 
I’ve often had similar thoughts thoughts about th Roman Legions. From the time of the Punic Wars it was clear that the Roman Republic was going to be the dominant power in the Mediterranean and the Legions were a force the be reckoned with, so why is it that nobody tried to devolve a tactic that could beat the Roman maniple system?

Its not as though the Romans were static with their military organization themselves. Looking at the various post-Punic wars you’ll see plenty of wars that gave Rome a hard time, but the Romans simply adapted quicker than their competitors. A large part of that is Rome’s tradition of citizen soldiers and allies allowed them virtually bottomless manpower, so they could be more experimental. Notice how Marius’ reforms were about manpower and getting the most out of that manpower. I think the Romans were well aware of their competitive advantage there.
 
Personally, because I think is challenging to save or attempt to save a Roman state or a Roman Barbarian state.
 
I would like to see a timeline with Germanicus Julius Caesar surviving and becoming emperor, but ultimately I feel the later empire was a time of ultimately more interesting change in Europe.
 
I'm pretty sure there are way more early-ish Rome TLs and PoDs on the site, late Roman stuff only seems to have become common very recently. And it's a change I'm glad for, later Roman history is much more interesting and there's more can be done with it IMO.
 
I would say it is born in part out of the rampant Byzantophilia that exists on this board.
While I dislike the constant Byzantium fanboying on the board you, my good sir, are everywhere decrying it. While yeah it is there it probably isn't as bad as it seems at least I haven't seen any 1450 Byzantine survival threads.
 
I like Rome-screw PoD's just as much as Roman survival PoD's, if not more. And the Migration Period seems to have just the best collection of potential PoD's.
But the Principate also had its fair share of barbarian problems. I have interest in PoD's involving things such as the Illyrian Revolt of 6 AD, Arminius of the Cherusci managing to raid Gaul and North Italy after successfully allying with Maroboduus, and the Marcomanni defeating Marcus Aurelius.
 
I would like to see a timeline with Germanicus Julius Caesar surviving and becoming emperor, but ultimately I feel the later empire was a time of ultimately more interesting change in Europe.

I mean we see the Germanic tribes begin to consolidate and form proto-national identities and primitive states. The Persians re-arise as a power freed from both Hellenistic monarchy and Steppe nomadism (well in the core at least.) We also see Arabic groups rising in prominence like the Lakhmids or the Ghassanids.

Finally, not to be understated, Christianity taking root in Europe is such a massive change from previous eras and would take on importance even to our day.
 
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Finally, not to be understated, but Christianity taking root in Europe is such a massive change from previous eras and would take on importance even to our day.
I agree. A POD too early starts to butterfly the New Testament, an issue many board members want to avoid.
 
I agree. A POD too early starts to butterfly the New Testament, an issue many board members want to avoid.
If i am ever to make an Antiquity TL in the future, i'll prefer ending it at around a timeframe and socio-political disposition i can accurately predict from the PoD. Such as starting from the Punic Wars and ending at around 1 AD.
 
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