Who's The Doctor? A TL
- Thread starter DAv
- Start date
OK, it's just the first quite was from season 3, but it fit the description of the end of the final season, so I was confused.
And all good things... while a fun phrase, still leaves "why" in my head.
Probably too close to the secondary, major POD to be really affected. While sad, at least Carol is still left ripping the Avengers a new one.
Ah, the third series did have a general threat to New York that had to be dealt with and the fourth series upped the ante by making the threat to the entire world, my apologies for not being clear. The reasons the show ended was that, by the end, Eddie Murphy wanted to break into movies and only stayed on because he was raking in cash during the fourth series. The others also wanted to move onto other things and felt it was best to end on a high point. There was a hint in the last update that Belushi wasn't as well as hoped so his personal issues played into the choice as well. At the end of the day, everyone felt the series had gone as far as it could and everyone wanted to do other stuff. Preferably stuff that didn't have them lugging the proton packs around for hours at a time while filming.
Chapter Seventeen
Part Seventeen: The Last Avenger:
“We had been floating around ideas for some time at that point. Frank was busy with his own projects but we were looking into other stories to be told with Marvel characters and he was invited. With the success of stuff like Rock And Rule, we considered a comic with a darker turn and ideas continued to bounce around until Frank spoke up. He'd been working over ideas for the Distinguished Competition, telling the story of an older hero stepping back into the limelight. After some discussion and tweaking, the story turned towards Captain America and the Avengers. We saw the potential in it and although it was far from a traditional Marvel story, the impact it had would be far beyond what we expected.
- Extract from an interview with Jim Shooter, 1992
Captain America: The Last Avenger, June – October, 1985
- Publication date of Frank Miller's 'The Last Avenger'
“People say that The Last Avenger was a huge break from what Captain America was about but you're divorcing him from the times. After Watergate, he'd become the Nomad and turned away from his role as Captain America. So looking towards a more cynical role for Cap wasn't that surprising when you take things like that into consideration.”
- Quote from Blade Warrior, member of Freakin' Awesome Network Forums, 2013
“The year is 2008 and the world has changed, not for the better. After the death of his compatriot Falcon, Captain America went into retirement, feeling unable to carry on the war for letting his friend die. In his absence, the Avengers became worse in their own ways, Tony Stark an irresponsible drunkard who uses his riches to buy his way out of his many problems, Thor has become a God with worshippers and neglects his hero duties in favour of the adulation from the public and after the death of Hank Pym, Janet was forced to become a Madame in order to maintain her lifestyle.” (1)
“As the world, and New York in particular, slips down the drain in apathy and vice with crime steadily rising, Cap looks on with disgust but feels unable to do anything about it, having long since lost confidence in himself. During one night journeying back home, Cap is forced to interfere when a woman is confronted by a gang. Managing to defeat the group, the woman thanks Cap and introduces herself as Liberty. Seeing this as a symbol for all he once fought, Cap once more dons the red, white and blue to fight for his previous ideals.”
“Taking the fight back to his streets, Cap's status as a hero made him an outlaw by a country that had turned its back on the ideals he had once upheld. Iron Man is sent to bring Cap down, a running battle occurring where Stark's drunkenness causes mass collateral damage that Cap gets blamed for. Their battle ends at the former Avengers Mansion, now derelict and forgotten when Stark breaks down and weeps at seeing the building and overwhelmed by its memories. Full of remorse for what he's become following the death of Jarvis and Pepper, Tony begs Cap to make things right before his heart is unable to take anymore and fails, Tony dying on the spot and leaving Cap having to deal with the aftermath.”
“Now a wanted fugitive, Cap meets a young African-American named Rodney who was established in the comic as a bird lover and neglected teen. Feeling that Cap's ideals could be brought back, Rodney managed to track Cap down as he was fighting a gang known as the Skullz, who had taken on the ideals of the Red Skull and donned costumes to look like him. Taking the fight to the gang, Cap is saved by Rodney's interference just as he was about to get shot by a member of the gang. Working with the teenager, Cap manages to defeat the gang, deciding to use them as a force for good as he gives a speech outlining his ideals that they could follow to be a force for good.”
“As Cap starts to mold the street gangs to help New York City, the Cold War turns hot as the unimportant island of Corto Maltese becomes a flash point for conflict between the two super powers. A Soviet nuclear attack is stopped by Thor who has grown weary of the arrogance of mortals and believes that the reappearance of Captain America might encourage them to try and challenge the Norse Gods. Backed by Asgard, Thor sends a demand over television for Humanity to remember its place and to stop all moves towards war while he goes to deal with Captain America.”
“With the stage set for a conflict, Cap creates a plan to face down Thor while calling up some of the heroes who still remain active. Power Man and Iron Fist answer the call, having never stopped being Heroes For Hire while a beaten down Logan also joins the fight, a mention of the X-Men being mostly dead (2) indicating that team's fate in the world. Banding together, the group faces down Thor as he arrives in New York City, leading to a running battle throughout as the out of shape Thor finds himself on the end of technology appropriated from Tony Stark's lab and turned it on Thor, Cap using a modified Hulk-Buster suit to take on Thor in hand to hand combat.”
“After a battle that levels an entire block, Thor comes to realise that Cap was right to rise up when the Gods had proven unworthy to call themselves so for losing their drive while Captain America had been ready to fight for his destiny. Before Thor can truly fight back though, a gas main explodes from the carnage, seemingly obliterating Cap on the spot from the fire. Thor can only find Cap's shield in the wreckage, mourning his fallen comrade while resolving on remembering the lessons he learned as one of the Avengers, to lead the world and be worthy of his power.”
“As the city mourns though, Cap is revealed to be alive with Rodney and the remaining heroes gathering, ready to lead a new Revolution to restore the ideals of America. As he does so, Cap reflects to Rodney that it's been so long since he's felt this young.”
- Plot Summary of 'Captain America: The Last Avenger'
The success of The Last Avenger in changing how Marvel took its creative direction cannot be overstated. Frank Miller's creative choices in Marvel throughout the 80's had produced popular and successful runs in titles such as X-Men and Daredevil that had helped redefine the latter's character. The Last Avenger helped cement Miller's place in Marvel's history and defined an aspect of Captain America's character and his relationship of those around him. He would grow to become an established anti-authority figure within the Marvel Universe while being antagonistic towards Iron Man, a figure who was seen as being cosy with forces Captain America opposed, and Thor, a character who was seen as aloof by those writing for Captain America and potentially one who would demand the obedience of mortals. While fans of all three characters would reject the interpretations, they nevertheless became popular ways to look at the trio and how they'd interact.
- Extract from 'Capes & Cowls: A History of Superheroes', 2010
The Last Avenger helped redefine the biggest names in the Avengers, and the Marvel Universe for over a decade after. Captain America's previous anti-authority leanings were greatly increased to the extent his tag line became “Loyal to the Dream alone.”. The changes throughout the Marvel Universe because of Frank Miller's long involvement with the company and his huge success with its franchises would lead to the creative direction leaning towards more of Miller flavour for other writers, looking to emulate his success. The change in Marvel's creative direction would lead it to taking a darker path while allowing for more violent stories to be told. This served as a contrast towards DC who was seen by still publishing 'kiddy stuff' with the 1960's Batman television series still in people's minds in regard to what their own characters were like.
- Extract from 'Comic Books: A History', 2001
“I'm the man who made Captain America a hero again.”
- Quote from Frank Miller, 1998
“Seeing what Marvel was doing, and becoming successful at it, brought about a few questions at DC and how to respond. Their changes to Captain America, one of their cornerstone characters, was something that took several by surprise. We had hoped to being in Frank to write a few stories for DC but after his decision to stay in Marvel, we had to focus inwards and respond to Marvel's own creative direction. Following the darker turn was something we felt wasn't the best choice as Marvel was leading the way and trying to catch up was a move we believed that would hurt us. We instead turned towards more of a focus on our Sci-Fi properties such as Green Lantern. Science Fiction was really popular during those years so turning more towards exploring the DC Universe beyond Earth. It turned out to be a real boon for us as the years went by.”
- Extract from an interview with Dick Giordano, 1998
“It was a huge step forward to make Cap tough as he had been in the War. There'd been all that identity change after Watergate but the Last Avenger was the first thing to really take him back to his roots as someone who'd blast through everything to fight for what he thought was right. He was a hero again and the Last Avenger helped make it like that.”
- Extract from an interview with Frank Miller, 2012
The differences between Marvel and DC would soon become apparent as the 80's came to a close. The creative choices that had been made after the release of the Last Avenger emphasised different aspects of each company's history and Universe. Marvel, having long been the home of such anti-heroes such as Wolverine, Daredevil and the Punisher, chose the darker path to follow after the success of the Last Avenger. Characters such as Iron Fist and Luke Cage were also made grittier to fit in with the changing times. DC, as a contrast, decided to go an alternate route by emphasising their Science Fiction properties, the Green Lantern franchise in particular. These changes would further emphasise the differences between the two companies as their creative choices would go on to determine their course of actions in the next decade and would help define how superheroes were seen by the general public once the movies began.”
- Extract from 'Beneath The Cowl, A History of Superheroes', 2004
1989: Green Lantern
1991: Martian Manhunter
1992: The Flash
1993: Green Lantern II: Sinestro's Revenge
1994: Shazam! The Rise of Captain Marvel
- List of movies based off DC properties that were released from 1989-1994
1: It's Frank Miller, easy enough to see happening.
2: As in most of them are dead, not that they're all near death.
“We had been floating around ideas for some time at that point. Frank was busy with his own projects but we were looking into other stories to be told with Marvel characters and he was invited. With the success of stuff like Rock And Rule, we considered a comic with a darker turn and ideas continued to bounce around until Frank spoke up. He'd been working over ideas for the Distinguished Competition, telling the story of an older hero stepping back into the limelight. After some discussion and tweaking, the story turned towards Captain America and the Avengers. We saw the potential in it and although it was far from a traditional Marvel story, the impact it had would be far beyond what we expected.
- Extract from an interview with Jim Shooter, 1992
Captain America: The Last Avenger, June – October, 1985
- Publication date of Frank Miller's 'The Last Avenger'
“People say that The Last Avenger was a huge break from what Captain America was about but you're divorcing him from the times. After Watergate, he'd become the Nomad and turned away from his role as Captain America. So looking towards a more cynical role for Cap wasn't that surprising when you take things like that into consideration.”
- Quote from Blade Warrior, member of Freakin' Awesome Network Forums, 2013
“The year is 2008 and the world has changed, not for the better. After the death of his compatriot Falcon, Captain America went into retirement, feeling unable to carry on the war for letting his friend die. In his absence, the Avengers became worse in their own ways, Tony Stark an irresponsible drunkard who uses his riches to buy his way out of his many problems, Thor has become a God with worshippers and neglects his hero duties in favour of the adulation from the public and after the death of Hank Pym, Janet was forced to become a Madame in order to maintain her lifestyle.” (1)
“As the world, and New York in particular, slips down the drain in apathy and vice with crime steadily rising, Cap looks on with disgust but feels unable to do anything about it, having long since lost confidence in himself. During one night journeying back home, Cap is forced to interfere when a woman is confronted by a gang. Managing to defeat the group, the woman thanks Cap and introduces herself as Liberty. Seeing this as a symbol for all he once fought, Cap once more dons the red, white and blue to fight for his previous ideals.”
“Taking the fight back to his streets, Cap's status as a hero made him an outlaw by a country that had turned its back on the ideals he had once upheld. Iron Man is sent to bring Cap down, a running battle occurring where Stark's drunkenness causes mass collateral damage that Cap gets blamed for. Their battle ends at the former Avengers Mansion, now derelict and forgotten when Stark breaks down and weeps at seeing the building and overwhelmed by its memories. Full of remorse for what he's become following the death of Jarvis and Pepper, Tony begs Cap to make things right before his heart is unable to take anymore and fails, Tony dying on the spot and leaving Cap having to deal with the aftermath.”
“Now a wanted fugitive, Cap meets a young African-American named Rodney who was established in the comic as a bird lover and neglected teen. Feeling that Cap's ideals could be brought back, Rodney managed to track Cap down as he was fighting a gang known as the Skullz, who had taken on the ideals of the Red Skull and donned costumes to look like him. Taking the fight to the gang, Cap is saved by Rodney's interference just as he was about to get shot by a member of the gang. Working with the teenager, Cap manages to defeat the gang, deciding to use them as a force for good as he gives a speech outlining his ideals that they could follow to be a force for good.”
“As Cap starts to mold the street gangs to help New York City, the Cold War turns hot as the unimportant island of Corto Maltese becomes a flash point for conflict between the two super powers. A Soviet nuclear attack is stopped by Thor who has grown weary of the arrogance of mortals and believes that the reappearance of Captain America might encourage them to try and challenge the Norse Gods. Backed by Asgard, Thor sends a demand over television for Humanity to remember its place and to stop all moves towards war while he goes to deal with Captain America.”
“With the stage set for a conflict, Cap creates a plan to face down Thor while calling up some of the heroes who still remain active. Power Man and Iron Fist answer the call, having never stopped being Heroes For Hire while a beaten down Logan also joins the fight, a mention of the X-Men being mostly dead (2) indicating that team's fate in the world. Banding together, the group faces down Thor as he arrives in New York City, leading to a running battle throughout as the out of shape Thor finds himself on the end of technology appropriated from Tony Stark's lab and turned it on Thor, Cap using a modified Hulk-Buster suit to take on Thor in hand to hand combat.”
“After a battle that levels an entire block, Thor comes to realise that Cap was right to rise up when the Gods had proven unworthy to call themselves so for losing their drive while Captain America had been ready to fight for his destiny. Before Thor can truly fight back though, a gas main explodes from the carnage, seemingly obliterating Cap on the spot from the fire. Thor can only find Cap's shield in the wreckage, mourning his fallen comrade while resolving on remembering the lessons he learned as one of the Avengers, to lead the world and be worthy of his power.”
“As the city mourns though, Cap is revealed to be alive with Rodney and the remaining heroes gathering, ready to lead a new Revolution to restore the ideals of America. As he does so, Cap reflects to Rodney that it's been so long since he's felt this young.”
- Plot Summary of 'Captain America: The Last Avenger'
The success of The Last Avenger in changing how Marvel took its creative direction cannot be overstated. Frank Miller's creative choices in Marvel throughout the 80's had produced popular and successful runs in titles such as X-Men and Daredevil that had helped redefine the latter's character. The Last Avenger helped cement Miller's place in Marvel's history and defined an aspect of Captain America's character and his relationship of those around him. He would grow to become an established anti-authority figure within the Marvel Universe while being antagonistic towards Iron Man, a figure who was seen as being cosy with forces Captain America opposed, and Thor, a character who was seen as aloof by those writing for Captain America and potentially one who would demand the obedience of mortals. While fans of all three characters would reject the interpretations, they nevertheless became popular ways to look at the trio and how they'd interact.
- Extract from 'Capes & Cowls: A History of Superheroes', 2010
The Last Avenger helped redefine the biggest names in the Avengers, and the Marvel Universe for over a decade after. Captain America's previous anti-authority leanings were greatly increased to the extent his tag line became “Loyal to the Dream alone.”. The changes throughout the Marvel Universe because of Frank Miller's long involvement with the company and his huge success with its franchises would lead to the creative direction leaning towards more of Miller flavour for other writers, looking to emulate his success. The change in Marvel's creative direction would lead it to taking a darker path while allowing for more violent stories to be told. This served as a contrast towards DC who was seen by still publishing 'kiddy stuff' with the 1960's Batman television series still in people's minds in regard to what their own characters were like.
- Extract from 'Comic Books: A History', 2001
“I'm the man who made Captain America a hero again.”
- Quote from Frank Miller, 1998
“Seeing what Marvel was doing, and becoming successful at it, brought about a few questions at DC and how to respond. Their changes to Captain America, one of their cornerstone characters, was something that took several by surprise. We had hoped to being in Frank to write a few stories for DC but after his decision to stay in Marvel, we had to focus inwards and respond to Marvel's own creative direction. Following the darker turn was something we felt wasn't the best choice as Marvel was leading the way and trying to catch up was a move we believed that would hurt us. We instead turned towards more of a focus on our Sci-Fi properties such as Green Lantern. Science Fiction was really popular during those years so turning more towards exploring the DC Universe beyond Earth. It turned out to be a real boon for us as the years went by.”
- Extract from an interview with Dick Giordano, 1998
“It was a huge step forward to make Cap tough as he had been in the War. There'd been all that identity change after Watergate but the Last Avenger was the first thing to really take him back to his roots as someone who'd blast through everything to fight for what he thought was right. He was a hero again and the Last Avenger helped make it like that.”
- Extract from an interview with Frank Miller, 2012
The differences between Marvel and DC would soon become apparent as the 80's came to a close. The creative choices that had been made after the release of the Last Avenger emphasised different aspects of each company's history and Universe. Marvel, having long been the home of such anti-heroes such as Wolverine, Daredevil and the Punisher, chose the darker path to follow after the success of the Last Avenger. Characters such as Iron Fist and Luke Cage were also made grittier to fit in with the changing times. DC, as a contrast, decided to go an alternate route by emphasising their Science Fiction properties, the Green Lantern franchise in particular. These changes would further emphasise the differences between the two companies as their creative choices would go on to determine their course of actions in the next decade and would help define how superheroes were seen by the general public once the movies began.”
- Extract from 'Beneath The Cowl, A History of Superheroes', 2004
1989: Green Lantern
1991: Martian Manhunter
1992: The Flash
1993: Green Lantern II: Sinestro's Revenge
1994: Shazam! The Rise of Captain Marvel
- List of movies based off DC properties that were released from 1989-1994
1: It's Frank Miller, easy enough to see happening.
2: As in most of them are dead, not that they're all near death.
Orville_third
Banned
I wonder- OTL DC was considering a Zatanna movie around then- though Paul Dini didn't like it. Perhaps it might get a rewrite from Paul (nobody loves Zee more) or Gerry Conway (who's written the most stories with Zee in them).
Of course, that's quite similar to a TL of mine that I have in the planning stage...
Of course, that's quite similar to a TL of mine that I have in the planning stage...
Paul Dini will appear at some point, although he'll be elsewhere for the time being. Could go for Zatanna, as a Justice League movie would be considered as the success of the others goes on. Also, note the lack of one big name.
So, the Last Avenger is this TL's version of "The Dark Knight Returns," I suppose. And I'm guessing the reason DC moves into its science fiction territory is due to neither "Watchmen" nor the aforementioned "Dark Knight Returns" existing to help them create darker stories with existing characters. With Marvel doing that, they need to do something more original.
I also noticed The Last Avenger also had some similarities to the Elseworlds tale "Kingdom Come."
Good Update.
I also noticed The Last Avenger also had some similarities to the Elseworlds tale "Kingdom Come."
Good Update.
Yeah, that's essentially what happened. ITTL, DC will be largely seen as the Sci-Fi Superhero company with some bigger ones like Batman standing out. Marvel is the more gritty, anti-hero with characters like Wolverine being seen as the norm. Will become the general theme between the two over the next decade.
Thanks for your kind words and hope you continue to enjoy. How does it remind you of Kingdom Come though?
Question about the Green Lantern movies:
How does Warner Brothers make the ring construct effects work without it turning into something fit for USA Up All Night, Mystery Science Theater 3000, or middle of the week at noon on the Sci-Fi Channel? The first movie came out before Terminator 2, when the state of the art in CGI had been defined by The Last Starfighter, the lava shots in The Black Cauldron, and the last few episodes of Amazing Stories.
Also, I'm quite certain that Miller will catch all kinds of flak from the Far Right.
How does Warner Brothers make the ring construct effects work without it turning into something fit for USA Up All Night, Mystery Science Theater 3000, or middle of the week at noon on the Sci-Fi Channel? The first movie came out before Terminator 2, when the state of the art in CGI had been defined by The Last Starfighter, the lava shots in The Black Cauldron, and the last few episodes of Amazing Stories.
Also, I'm quite certain that Miller will catch all kinds of flak from the Far Right.
I'll go into it later, but Lucas retaining the company that went on to become Pixar helps a fair bit.
And Miller catches flak from most people these days but doesn't care. Don't think he'd give a fig ITTL either. Why'd it be the far right in this case?
Orville_third
Banned
Well, he did mock Reagan...and (OTL) the Bush II administration.
As for Lucas keeping Pixar, this could majorly change Disney- and perhaps make Lucas a billionaire instead of Steve Jobs being more of one. (OTL, He bought into Pixar and as a result became the biggest Disney shareholder.)
Haven't looked into that too much yet, but there's most likely going to be some changes in that.
Well, for starters, a great many Randian "Objectivists" (Ayn, not James) idolize Tony Stark as the John Galt of superhero comics, as a supply side to Oliver Queen, Danny Rand, both Mr. Terrifics, and the Post-Crisis Evil Businessman Lex Luthor. (In fact, I feel reason to believe retconning him as old money in Birthright and Smallville instead of the self-made man Lex was immediately after Crisis on Infinite Earths by John Byrne was an attempt to throw conservative detractors of the DC universe a bone, at least in part.)
Then there's the way many 80s fans of Cap (I wasn't one of them) were stuck in the Silver Age, when he battled a commie Red Skull, SDS and SNCC expies. They pretended that the Golden Age ended in 1954, and his investigations of Watergate and Uganda never happened. The "President Fires Cap" arc hit them really hard.
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Huh, didn't realise that the fandom of comics was skewed like that. Not sure too much about how Randian some of the heroes are, Stark was born into money although he still has his own accomplishments.
From what I can originally tell, Tony was originally a self-made man.
Superhero comic fandoms tend to be ahem, rather polarized. In general it can be said that the Left prefers Golden Age and Post-Crisis Superman, Wonder Woman, and Flash, and Silver Age and later Green Arrow, and most of the X-books, the Right prefers Silver Age Iron Man, Captain America, Green Lantern, and Steve Ditko's Charlton work, and everybody loves Golden Age and Post-Crisis Batman, but for completely different reasons. The only things almost everyone agrees on are that Silver Age Batman was strictly a money grab, and Bucky should have stayed dead.
Steve Ditko originally made the Ted Kord Blue Beetle and the Vic Sage Question as examples of Randian superheroes after he had quit Marvel in disgust with Stan Lee's editorial direction. Then Charlton's stable came to be a part of DC, and we learned that Ted Kord was the Bill Gates of the DC universe (he did make his billions, but they were built off of his father's millions as a banker) and Vic was forced to choose between upholding his political beliefs and actually helping out innocents caught up in the middle, and basically mellowed out into a mix of Batman, The Blank from Dick Tracy, an a right-wing version of Fox Mulder. Of course, considering that until his death during the events leading up to Infinite Crisis, Ted's main narrative niche was as a merely slightly more serious version of Ambush Bug whose accomplishments weren't (usually) retconned away by the end of the storyline, and Vic's storylines frequently had more in common with those of Danny Rand/Iron Fist and/or John Constantine than they did Bruce Wayne's (due to Denny O'Neil wanting to put his own special spin on the character), these developments are somewhat controversial among some long-standing readers.
I could continue to talk about this at length, but that would completely derail the tread.
Thanks for those kind words. Anything in particular you enjoyed or felt could be improved upon?