Who would win in a 1980s air war: NATO or the Warsaw Pact?

Who would win in a 1980s air war?

  • NATO

    Votes: 222 92.1%
  • Warsaw Pact

    Votes: 19 7.9%

  • Total voters
    241
I wouldn't get too excited about SAM threats to support aircraft, in the decades of use those aircraft rarely come within the threat range of air defense systems. I suspect you would be hard pressed to come up with an example.

That's because Iraq or Serbia did not have long range SAM's.
 
No, they did. Their incompetence just meant they didn't remotely use them to their full potential, like the rest of their equipment.

EDIT: Oh, I see you noted that.

AFAIK, with my knowledge being mostly Wiki-deep in the issue, the longest range SAM Serbia had was S-75 (SA-2) and the longest range SAM Iraq had was 2K11 Krug (SA-4). I'm not contesting the Iraqi ineptitude.

Anyway, back to the range issue, AWACS planes have to operate within S-200 range to be useful. Then it's the usual game between weapon and counter weapon. I'd be fairly sure that both WP and NATO would have a few aces up on their sleeve for this one. As for WP, perhaps a few home-on-jam / passive homing custom built SAM's to be used at first moments of war, or some special flight of AWACS killer MiG-25's for a suicide penetration mission, as for NATO EW aircraft flying as AEW escort or even a KC-135 as sacrificial target...

For AWACS I'd also place some Spetsnaz with mortar to attack Geilenkirchen. Or just supply Rote Armee Faktion with AT-missiles or mortars to protest against American-NATO-warmongers...
 
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Personally, I think we downplay the range of carrier battle groups, but if the carriers had been neutralized, would F-14s be useful as air superiority fighters from runways?
 
As the tanker said, not only do you need to open up the tank/armored vehicle for various reasons, but if you are in a chemical battlefield and need to exit the vehicle when it is hit, exiting in to a chemically contaminated environment with your suit on will kill you. If you are suited up and just need to put on the mask you should be OK.

The WP chem suits were much more "rubberized" than the US/NATO gear and as a result were a real heat stress problem for Soviet troops.

I think that the use of chemicals is being taken far too lightly here. With the WP's huge inventory, its too much an advantage for them to use them without NATO being forced to go nuclear. And IIRC, using persistent chemicals is going to reduce Germany to something akin to an unlivable desert. It's one thing for chemicals to break down over time and be decontaminated and washed away by rain to use for military purposes. Its another to make even farmland fit for safe every day civilian habitation.

One of those 1980s era WWIII novels had the East German government telling Moscow that if they even remotely contemplated the use of chemicals the DDR would address the issue "with the utmost concern." IOW, they'd blow the whistle on the WP's plans for a surprise attack, reveal the false premise for the attack (a supposed West German terrorist attack in Pskov), AND reveal the true reason for the invasion: A muslim terrorist attack in Baku that crippled Soviet oil production.

Within the bowels of East Berlin, the realization was that a successful WP conquest of West Germany would mean German Unification under the DDR. But that: "...a United Germany, even a United Socialist Germany, would be seen as a strategic threat to THE RUSSIANS!":mad: So...no chemicals. Unless the USSR's control over the DDR was so absolute that they (and Czechoslovakia and Poland and Hungary and Rumania and Bulgaria) would slavishly allow their ecosystems to be destroyed. After all, persistent nerve gas isn't WWI mustard or chlorine gas.
 

James G

Gone Fishin'
For AWACS I'd also place some Spetsnaz with mortar to attack Geilenkirchen. Or just supply Rote Armee Faktion with AT-missiles or mortars to protest against American-NATO-warmongers...

That's a damn good idea and I'm sure it would have been tried.
However, NATO planned for dispersal of them before the balloon went up, during tension. Their base was too far forward for conventional air risk.
There were FOBs for them in Norway and Turkey that I know of and I'm sure there were more bases ready to receive them - out of the way, nice and anonymous - in the UK, France and the Med.
 
That's a damn good idea and I'm sure it would have been tried.
However, NATO planned for dispersal of them before the balloon went up, during tension. Their base was too far forward for conventional air risk.
There were FOBs for them in Norway and Turkey that I know of and I'm sure there were more bases ready to receive them - out of the way, nice and anonymous - in the UK, France and the Med.

Without doubt dispersion and enhanced security would take toll upon any effort to destroy AWACS planes and other critical targets. Now, if I were planning an attack I would use RAF and other terrorist factions to strike against AWACS planes with AT-missiles etc. well before dispersion. The RAF would publish statements that AWACS are an instrumental plan of NATO's aggressive plans and thus destroying them is an act of peace and call for disarmament. After all, USSR does not have anything like that. (I'm trying to invent a twisted logic here...)
 

SsgtC

Banned
Without doubt dispersion and enhanced security would take toll upon any effort to destroy AWACS planes and other critical targets. Now, if I were planning an attack I would use RAF and other terrorist factions to strike against AWACS planes with AT-missiles etc. well before dispersion. The RAF would publish statements that AWACS are an instrumental plan of NATO's aggressive plans and thus destroying them is an act of peace and call for disarmament. After all, USSR does not have anything like that. (I'm trying to invent a twisted logic here...)

Why on Earth would the ROYAL AIR FORCE destroy their own AWACS?! Never mind that this would immediately start a war within NATO.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I think that the use of chemicals is being taken far too lightly here. With the WP's huge inventory, its too much an advantage for them to use them without NATO being forced to go nuclear. And IIRC, using persistent chemicals is going to reduce Germany to something akin to an unlivable desert. It's one thing for chemicals to break down over time and be decontaminated and washed away by rain to use for military purposes. Its another to make even farmland fit for safe every day civilian habitation.

The reason we skip chemical weapons is that NATO responds with very liberal use of nuclear weapons, probably strategic. And then, no one wins the air war.
 

James G

Gone Fishin'
Why on Earth would the ROYAL AIR FORCE destroy their own AWACS?! Never mind that this would immediately start a war within NATO.

He means the Red Army Faction (RAF).
Would be a little bit interesting to see the Royal Air Force (RAF) blowing up NATO E-3s, though great for a mad/bad ASB story.
 
He means the Red Army Faction (RAF).
Would be a little bit interesting to see the Royal Air Force (RAF) blowing up NATO E-3s, though great for a mad/bad ASB story.

They never seemed that competent (Red Army Faction and the other similar Terrorist groups of that era). Kidnapping, robberies and the occasional bomb yes, but acquiring and using heavy weapons not so much.
 

James G

Gone Fishin'
They never seemed that competent (Red Army Faction and the other similar Terrorist groups of that era). Kidnapping, robberies and the occasional bomb yes, but acquiring and using heavy weapons not so much.

There is competent and there is competent; it depends upon your point of view. As terrorists they could and did attack the US military - barracks bombings and the serious attempt on Al Haig when he was SACEUR. Up against E-3 Sentry's using RPGs or even ATGMs... yeah, bad idea. That's a Spetsnaz job.
 
Why on Earth would the ROYAL AIR FORCE destroy their own AWACS?! Never mind that this would immediately start a war within NATO.

Well, this is Alternate History, isn't it? I meant Rote Armee Faktion, the lunatic left terrorist group...

There is competent and there is competent; it depends upon your point of view. As terrorists they could and did attack the US military - barracks bombings and the serious attempt on Al Haig when he was SACEUR. Up against E-3 Sentry's using RPGs or even ATGMs... yeah, bad idea. That's a Spetsnaz job.

Before the war I would not be surprised if various terrorist groups got hold into actual good training and weapons. And, of course, there could be new members introduced to the groups... Of course most of the attempts would fail, but they would be cheap and have some sort of deniability. Imagine a 9/11 times ten. And of course various mysterious "lone wolves" like anthrax attacks post 9/11.
 

James G

Gone Fishin'
Before the war I would not be surprised if various terrorist groups got hold into actual good training and weapons. And, of course, there could be new members introduced to the groups... Of course most of the attempts would fail, but they would be cheap and have some sort of deniability. Imagine a 9/11 times ten. And of course various mysterious "lone wolves" like anthrax attacks post 9/11.

That would be expected. In the grey terror there would be deniable military terrorist attacks like that right on the eve of war.
 

SsgtC

Banned
I know the MiG-25 was more a useful speed intercept than dogfighter, but would it have any chance against an F-15?

In an ambush, maybe. But if the -15s know they're coming? The MiGs are dead planes flying. I doubt we'd see many MiG-25/31 family aircraft flying over Europe in a WWIII scenario. Those planes are the USSR's primary bomber and cruise missile interceptor. They're gonna be kept home for defense of the Motherland
 

James G

Gone Fishin'
In an ambush, maybe. But if the -15s know they're coming? The MiGs are dead planes flying. I doubt we'd see many MiG-25/31 family aircraft flying over Europe in a WWIII scenario. Those planes are the USSR's primary bomber and cruise missile interceptor. They're gonna be kept home for defense of the Motherland

You might see the Foxhounds in PVO colours over the top of Scandinavia. There were many Foxbat defence suppression and recon variants in VVS service too.
But standard MiG-25/MiG-31 v F-15 air combat would be very, very rare. Not impossible either though.
 
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