Who would succeed Napoleon II?

Say that in some OTL, Napoleon manages to stay Emperor of France and the three of his brothers that became kings (of Holland, Spain and Westphalia) all stay Kings. Let's assume Napoleon dies as per otl in 1821, and is succeeded by his son who after a regency and brief reign dies in 1832 with no children. Who would suceed Napoleon II?

Going by salic law, the heir is Joseph Bonaparte, who is king of Spain in this timeline. Would he accept the throne though? A franco-spanish union would be a terrifying prospect. I can imagine him saying no to the throne though, realizing he just doesn't have the capability to govern both Spain and France.

If not Joseph then Louis perhaps? Though liked by his dutch subjects, Napoleon did of course depose him of his throne in otl. In this timeline he remains king of Holland, but Napoleon's trust in him may still be shakey, I could imagine him being removed from succession by Napoleon.

Who then, Jerome? I know almost nothing about his and Napoleon's relationship or his capacity as a monarch.

What do you think?
 
Might be best without a Napoleon II. Anyways, looking thigns up I see that when Louis I of Holland abdicated his son took over for a bit, and that son was also Grand Duke of Berg. And that Napoleon himself had been Grand Duke previously. Now, what if some land was passed around as consolation prizes? Or if there was unification of some lands. First off, should we assume France is keeping its border at the Rhine, and that Holland and Westphalia can split the land between themselves? Though perhaps aprtmfo Hanover is returned in the peace settlement.
 
The Napoleonic law of succession was male order primogeniture, firstly Joseph and any sons he had and then Louis and his sons (Napoleon's other brothers were excluded from the succession). In the event of NII dying on schedule without an heir (by no means inevitable BTW, he died of pneumonia which is eminently avoidable) the throne would go to Joseph and then, because he has no sons, to Louis who would presumably be ruling over France, Spain and the Netherlands by this point - at least until the almost inevitable War of the French Succession kicked off.
 
Might be best without a Napoleon II.

What do you mean?

Anyways, looking thigns up I see that when Louis I of Holland abdicated his son took over for a bit, and that son was also Grand Duke of Berg. And that Napoleon himself had been Grand Duke previously. Now, what if some land was passed around as consolation prizes? Or if there was unification of some lands. First off, should we assume France is keeping its border at the Rhine, and that Holland and Westphalia can split the land between themselves? Though perhaps aprtmfo Hanover is returned in the peace settlement.

I'm sorry I don't quite understand.

The Napoleonic law of succession was male order primogeniture, firstly Joseph and any sons he had and then Louis and his sons (Napoleon's other brothers were excluded from the succession). In the event of NII dying on schedule without an heir (by no means inevitable BTW, he died of pneumonia which is eminently avoidable) the throne would go to Joseph and then, because he has no sons, to Louis who would presumably be ruling over France, Spain and the Netherlands by this point - at least until the almost inevitable War of the French Succession kicked off.

Do you think it'd be war as soon as Joseph became Emperor? Who would the french marshals back?
 
What do you mean?



I'm sorry I don't quite understand.



Do you think it'd be war as soon as Joseph became Emperor? Who would the french marshals back?
If we don't get to Napoleon II then we would have to worry less about butterflies. For starters, Louis I was despoiled by his brother before Napoleon II was even born I also believe that Napoleon had one of his nephews as his heir before, but I am unsure which. The part I mentoined about Berg was that perhaps Berg and Holland would unify, so whoever is in charge there at the time would have a sizable Kingdom. And the Marshals would back whoever had been the official heir. I imagine Bonaparte's brothers wouldn't go rocking the boat. Would be interesting if a personal union was opened between France and whatever their other Kingdom is, but it would probably go to a second son.
 
The Napoleonic law of succession was male order primogeniture, firstly Joseph and any sons he had and then Louis and his sons (Napoleon's other brothers were excluded from the succession). In the event of NII dying on schedule without an heir (by no means inevitable BTW, he died of pneumonia which is eminently avoidable)

It's also quite possible that Napoléon I has additional children with Marie-Louise. OTL they were only together from 1810-14. TTL they are together until 1821.
 
If we don't get to Napoleon II then we would have to worry less about butterflies. For starters, Louis I was despoiled by his brother before Napoleon II was even born I also believe that Napoleon had one of his nephews as his heir before, but I am unsure which. The part I mentoined about Berg was that perhaps Berg and Holland would unify, so whoever is in charge there at the time would have a sizable Kingdom. And the Marshals would back whoever had been the official heir. I imagine Bonaparte's brothers wouldn't go rocking the boat. Would be interesting if a personal union was opened between France and whatever their other Kingdom is, but it would probably go to a second son.

Napoleon's official heir was his big brother Joseph, so it would result in a personal union of France and Spain, maybe a war also. If Josephs become emperor and only has two daughters as per otl, perhaps they'd get a kingdom each (Spain could have female rulers from 1830, but that law may never be introduced this timeline) but I doubt it'd be an easy succession. Perhaps they can marry a cousin each of both the dutch and westphalian branch to make a split easier?
 
It's also quite possible that Napoléon I has additional children with Marie-Louise. OTL they were only together from 1810-14. TTL they are together until 1821.

I'm tryinh to construct this assuming people die when they did otl, and have the same amount of kids. Not terribly realistic but I find it the most fun way to do it. :p
 
Do you think it'd be war as soon as Joseph became Emperor? Who would the french marshals back?

Bluntly, it depends what you mean by "King of Spain" and specifically how the Peninsular War went. If Joseph is living as an exile in Paris while a British-backed government is ruling in Madrid then it won't come up. If he's secure on his throne with the Guerra de la Independencia having been reduced to the level of a few isolated guerilla bands then the other powers will be a lot more concerned. A possible solution to avoid war would be to give the Spanish crown to one of his daughters and her husband (both daughters married sons of Joseph's brothers) and relying on male only primogeniture to ensure that they couldn't inherit France.



I'm tryinh to construct this assuming people die when they did otl, and have the same amount of kids. Not terribly realistic but I find it the most fun way to do it. :p

Understood, but a problem with that is that the Hapsburgs took some care to isolate NII from women OTL to minimise the risk of him producing an heir. He would face pressure in the opposite direction in the ATL - pretty much every cute, eligible girl in the Empire will be throwing herself (or getting thrown) at him.
 
Bluntly, it depends what you mean by "King of Spain" and specifically how the Peninsular War went. If Joseph is living as an exile in Paris while a British-backed government is ruling in Madrid then it won't come up. If he's secure on his throne with the Guerra de la Independencia having been reduced to the level of a few isolated guerilla bands then the other powers will be a lot more concerned.

I'm think he's in Spain yeah, but his grip on the country may not be absolute.

A possible solution to avoid war would be to give the Spanish crown to one of his daughters and her husband (both daughters married sons of Joseph's brothers) and relying on male only primogeniture to ensure that they couldn't inherit France.

I was thinking something like this as well, also this way we could get (otl) Napoleon III on the throne of France as well. :p

Understood, but a problem with that is that the Hapsburgs took some care to isolate NII from women OTL to minimise the risk of him producing an heir. He would face pressure in the opposite direction in the ATL - pretty much every cute, eligible girl in the Empire will be throwing herself (or getting thrown) at him.

On the same note, different factions in the empire may want him to marrying different people, I can see Maria Louise want him to choose an Austrian wife while the general populous will be very much against this.
 
Say that in some OTL, Napoleon manages to stay Emperor of France and the three of his brothers that became kings (of Holland, Spain and Westphalia) all stay Kings. Let's assume Napoleon dies as per otl in 1821, and is succeeded by his son who after a regency and brief reign dies in 1832 with no children. Who would suceed Napoleon II?

Going by salic law, the heir is Joseph Bonaparte, who is king of Spain in this timeline. Would he accept the throne though? A franco-spanish union would be a terrifying prospect. I can imagine him saying no to the throne though, realizing he just doesn't have the capability to govern both Spain and France.

If not Joseph then Louis perhaps? Though liked by his dutch subjects, Napoleon did of course depose him of his throne in otl. In this timeline he remains king of Holland, but Napoleon's trust in him may still be shakey, I could imagine him being removed from succession by Napoleon.

Who then, Jerome? I know almost nothing about his and Napoleon's relationship or his capacity as a monarch.

What do you think?

The problems with this is that in all probability in such a timeline Marie-Louise has more children. As she showed later with Niepperg, she had that Habsburg fertility. Also, I cannot imagine any scenario short of Napoleonic utter domination and crushing everyone that Joseph stays King of Spain. Even Napoleon realized this eventually and offered the throne back to Ferdinand (along with a potential Bonaparte niece).
 
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