Who would have won in a UK-US alliance vs a Germany-USSR alliance during WW2?

Assuming 100k deaths per bomb, you'd need ~270 to match the losses the USSR took OTL (which haven't happened yet since they're allied). Plus some of those bombs will fail or their planes will be shot down.
What if those nukes were combined with conventional night bombing raids that the Germans couldn't stop and I doubt that would be any different for the Soviets.

Also as seen in Japan it wasn't just the sheer number of deaths that was impactful but the psychological shock of that type of weapon.
 
What if those nukes were combined with conventional night bombing raids that the Germans couldn't stop and I doubt that would be any different for the Soviets.

Also as seen in Japan it wasn't just the sheer number of deaths that was impactful but the psychological shock of that type of weapon.
You're greatly underestimating the sort of air power/defense a Germany that has no continental threats or resource shortages would be able to put together.

And where the hell would the UK/US even be projecting air power from that could even be in range of threatening the Soviets? Iraq? That'd probably just trigger a Soviet invasion of Persia.
 
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You're greatly underestimating the sort of air power/defense a Germany that has no continental threats or resource shortages would be able to put together.

And where the hell would the UK/US even be projecting air power from that could even be in range of threatening the Soviets? Iraq? That'd probably just trigger a Soviet invasion of Persia.
The Germans were working on a bomber that could hit America, you don't think the Americans couldn't develop bombers that could leave from the UK that can reach at least eastern Russia?
 

Riain

Banned
And where the hell would the UK/US even be projecting air power from that could even be in range of threatening the Soviets? Iraq? That'd probably just trigger a Soviet invasion of Persia.

Actually, this is where I've been thinking the battleground might be, and the Balkans and other peripheral areas.
 

Riain

Banned
Killing the leading figures of Germany and the USSR. Or eliminating a few armies. Or destroying the Ruhr industry.

As @nbcman says the likes of Little Boy and Fat Man lack the power to destroy a major European city or Field Army. They're horrific and high effective weapons but would need to be employed in large-ish numbers in a short time-frame to be considered war winners and would likely result in Britain being drenched in nerve gas in retaliation.
 
Who comes ahead in that fight?
What is each sides respective definition of a "win" in this scenario?
this scenario completely ignores the geopolitical realities of the day.
Agreed. Any conversation that does not take these into account and solely focuses on manpower, manufacturing and bomb capability is one that is only going to encourage further debate without resolution. The best responses of this thread so far, have taken the "reality" of the situation into account.
 
Except the Germans and Soviets probably don’t know what plutonium is since it was discovered in late 1940/early 1941 in secret in the US. Plus Germany’s atomic scientist miscalculated the mass of uranium required for a bomb so they would not think they had enough mass even if they scraped up the entirety of the bomb’s mass.

This, it's just some weird metal Hans found at the crash site, and which caused the entire platoon to die mysteriously after investigating the crash of that new american bomber.
 

thaddeus

Donor
Draw. At least in the short/medium term

Neither opponent can really get at the other. By mid 1942 the UK was invulnerable to invasion ... The Combined Reich/Soviet navy present nothing but a serious long term irritation (once Henry Kaiser's yards hit stride the KM/Soviet submarine fleets can sink tonnage as fast as U.S. yards can crank it out).

The "good news" as these thing go, is that there is ZERO chance of the Nazis and Soviets doing more than tolerating each other for a few years.
where are you calculating Japan under this scenario? it seems to me the Nazi regime would/could tolerate the USSR longer if they had reverted back to relations with KMT China and had access thru the Soviets to their treasure chest of resources? (and were watching the Soviets battle an Allied Japan? and the British and US in Iran?)

something that tracks closer to historical, with the Soviets joining Germany-Italy-Japan in the Axis looks set to unravel quickly.
 

Osman Aga

Banned
As @nbcman says the likes of Little Boy and Fat Man lack the power to destroy a major European city or Field Army. They're horrific and high effective weapons but would need to be employed in large-ish numbers in a short time-frame to be considered war winners and would likely result in Britain being drenched in nerve gas in retaliation.

Delay it until 1948, as long as Germany does not posses a Nuclear Weapon. It isn't hard. The US had two bombs in 1945, they had a bunch more in 1949. If they use it on Germany or the USSR, one at least, it could scare of one of the nations. Drop it on a few important places around the same time: Berlin, Ruhr Industry, Hamburg/Bremen/Lubeck ports, a some airfields near major cities and you can already cripple the ability of the said nation to respond properly. Especially if the said nation has not nuclear weapons (yet).

If Germany is hit, the USSR will back off, or feel some of the heath until they back off. Considering the USA had 299 nukes in 1950, which would be around 150-200 in 1948 (my guess), it seems more than enough to cripple one of those nations and scare of the other.

But the same works for the other side, to remind you, I said the alliance that has nukes first. If Germany has it first they can and could use it against the UK. The US is a harder situation considering how far it is and how much stronger their navy is compared to the German-Soviet Navies.
 

Osman Aga

Banned
Assuming 100k deaths per bomb, you'd need ~270 to match the losses the USSR took OTL (which haven't happened yet since they're allied). Plus some of those bombs will fail or their planes will be shot down.
If the planes still fall down near Air defense systems, which would be near cities etc. doesn't the nuke still destroy it anyway? I hardly see it make it out okay from a falling plane. So still causing some damage.
 

Garrison

Donor
The problem with such a German-Soviet alliance is that the USSR would become the dominant partner in the same way as the UK did with the US. Its why in OTL ideas of extending the M-R pact into a full blown alliance never took off. Nazi Germany isn't about to become subservient to Moscow so any sort of alliance that was somehow cobbled together can't really last very long.
 
If the planes still fall down near Air defense systems, which would be near cities etc. doesn't the nuke still destroy it anyway? I hardly see it make it out okay from a falling plane. So still causing some damage.
Shooting down a nuke does not cause it to go critical mass and detonate, not even with gun type bombs.
 
If the planes still fall down near Air defense systems, which would be near cities etc. doesn't the nuke still destroy it anyway? I hardly see it make it out okay from a falling plane. So still causing some damage.
In addition to the weapons not being triggered on impact with the ground, they aren't intended to hit the ground at all. Most weapons are intended as air burst weapons, in order to optimize the damage the explosion actually does. In fact, while a ground explosion would leave far more radioactive material behind on the ground, the actual damage of it would be a fraction of what happened at Hiroshima.

Will touch more on this in a bit, but Strategic Bombing is not the war winner that Allied theorists believed it to be, and the concept of simply bombing an enemy into submission has never been proven to work. Even if you believe the nukes caused Japan to surrender, it ignores the greater context of Japan's defeat on every front by the Allies as well as the Soviet Declaration of War. Nukes are not an "I win" button, and firebombing is both cheaper and just as effective even if we buy into the myth of strategic bombing.
 

nbcman

Donor
Shooting down a nuke does not cause it to go critical mass and detonate, not even with gun type bombs.
After takeoff the devices were armed and would detonate at a certain altitude. So if the aircraft or bomb fell below that set altitude and the altimeter based detonation device was operating, it would explode whether or not it was at the desired target.
 

thaddeus

Donor
is it possible the Allies would fall victim to the "whole rotten structure" belief as did the Germans historically? wondering about UK/US forces in Iraq-Iran trying to knock the Soviets out of their oil-producing Caucasus region, that it might knock them out of the war? and of course harm Germany too. (IMO that would not work, but it might be the perception at the time)
 
is it possible the Allies would fall victim to the "whole rotten structure" belief as did the Germans historically? wondering about UK/US forces in Iraq-Iran trying to knock the Soviets out of their oil-producing Caucasus region, that it might knock them out of the war? and of course harm Germany too. (IMO that would not work, but it might be the perception at the time)
Yeah this probably wouldn't work, Soviets+Germans would have enough oil supplies for at least a year or so while the oil facilities get repaired.
 
The Germans were working on a bomber that could hit America, you don't think the Americans couldn't develop bombers that could leave from the UK that can reach at least eastern Russia?
The Amerikabomber was still on the drawing board when the war ended, the B-29 did actually have the range to hit Moscow/Leningrad from England IIRC but that's only if they face no opposition. Luftwaffe+VVS are still going to be at pretty full strength. I'm not sure if the WAllies had any fighters with enough range to escort the bombers that far, if they don't then they 100% can't do that and even if they do have fighters with the necessary range it's quite likely that they get overwhelmed. If they aren't going in a straight line at the optimal altitude but are instead swerving around to dodge/attack enemy fighters then their range is decreased even if they never get shot.
 
is it possible the Allies would fall victim to the "whole rotten structure" belief as did the Germans historically? wondering about UK/US forces in Iraq-Iran trying to knock the Soviets out of their oil-producing Caucasus region, that it might knock them out of the war? and of course harm Germany too. (IMO that would not work, but it might be the perception at the time)
Allies are more likely to have their Persian and Iraqi oil supplies threatened by mesopotamia becoming a warzone than they would of crippling the Caucasus supply with pure air power against a Soviet Union with no other fronts to worry about.
 
Hitler humored Ribbentrop’s schemes for a “Continental Bloc” with the USSR in November and 1940 to oppose the US/UK. The negotiations were a failure because the USSR was far more interested in Romania, Bulgaria, Finland, and Turkey than Iraq and India. If Barbarossa doesn’t happen in 1941, the USSR and Germany are going to have their relationship collapse over renewed Soviet attempts to occupy Finland (Offensive plans started being drawn up in Fall 1940), neutralize Bulgaria, and assert greater influence over Romania.

A longer German-Soviet detente is interesting inasmuch as how it collapses is fun to consider - but I can’t see it surviving 1942.
 
If Germany has a functional fighter force and is allied to USSR who also have a functional fighter force I would expect the first 3 nukes to be targeted on Hamburg Kiel and Bremen.

Coastal cities so you don't need to penetrate far under enemy air defenses. Major centres of U-boat manufacture (U-boat threat likely to be still active at the stage if German industry is still functioning and French ports are in German hands.

Of it Japan is on the German USSR side 3 nukes to push them conpletly out the war.
 
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