Who was better? Lee VS Jackson!

Who was a better general?


  • Total voters
    43
Agreed.

Thomas vs. Longstreet would be a more interesting intellectual contest than most, although my money is on the Virginian in THAT scenario. :D Longstreet could be mule stubborn in bad ways, as he showed after pissing Bragg off.

Thomas had the better understanding of initiative and ways to achieve it in spite of a bad situation and poor overall command than Longstreet did. Thomas at Mill Springs was in a similar situation to Longstreet at Knoxville and Thomas won, Longstreet gave Burnside the moment that kind-of sort-of redeemed his battlefield career.

Couldn't agree more.

What I don't get is why Jackson has the bloody halo of glory he does. I mean, okay, he won battles and was a martyr. Fine. I can see that being glorified. But how him being a bigger prick than Bragg is kinda forgotten disturbs me.

He was the first great Confederate hero in his own time. He was actually far more popular than Lee in Lee's own lifetime, and at least part of the Lost Cause tradition involved Jackson-bashing (something generally glossed over in the 21st Century distilled version). Jackson's flaws in other words were glossed over even at the time, so it's disturbing on levels far surpassing the disturbing elements of Bragg's Commissar-style approach to military discipline (which wound up building the CS army with the most staying power and overall hardiness, though Bragg was never decisive enough to use it in a battle situation with or without Polk adding to his problems).
 
What I don't get is why Jackson has the bloody halo of glory he does. I mean, okay, he won battles and was a martyr. Fine. I can see that being glorified. But how him being a bigger prick than Bragg is kinda forgotten disturbs me.
I find Jackson to a personal insperation to me and am very interested in the man, but I have so say that I am dissipointed when most materials on him talk only of his virtues like you've said. Could you refer me to any sources that you've come accross that give details on Jackson that humanize him more by giving all the detials pretty or not?
 
Thomas had the better understanding of initiative and ways to achieve it in spite of a bad situation and poor overall command than Longstreet did. Thomas at Mill Springs was in a similar situation to Longstreet at Knoxville and Thomas won, Longstreet gave Burnside the moment that kind-of sort-of redeemed his battlefield career.

That sums up why Thomas is the Man and Longstreet is just the best Confederate, I think.

He was the first great Confederate hero in his own time. He was actually far more popular than Lee in Lee's own lifetime, and at least part of the Lost Cause tradition involved Jackson-bashing (something generally glossed over in the 21st Century distilled version). Jackson's flaws in other words were glossed over even at the time, so it's disturbing on levels far surpassing the disturbing elements of Bragg's Commissar-style approach to military discipline (which wound up building the CS army with the most staying power and overall hardiness, though Bragg was never decisive enough to use it in a battle situation with or without Polk adding to his problems).

I'm not sure what to say to this other than that Southern history is really, really messed up.
 
Yeah. I'm not as sure as you are on Gettysburg being unwinnable, so I'll just say this:

Lee fought the battle in exactly the way a guy destined to have his ass kicked would.

Meade never let the ANV's reputation being well earned (if still exaggerated) get in the way of making it a big defeat for Lee.

That took both brains and guts.

And most of his subordinates seem to have followed that when it counted - Sykes on Day 2 looks actually decent, for instance. Hancock's record speaks for itself.

To me Gettysburg was unwinnable for a single, simple fact that escapes almost every recounting of the battle: Lee spent an entire month rampaging through Pennsylvania and was completely shocked the AoTP was coming after him after four full fucking weeks. :rolleyes::mad:

If this is the starting point, it doesn't matter what minor miracles Lee or his subordinates work, the whole thing is starting on a poor footing. For the Army of the Potomac it really was an awesome victory, as they had a chance to make Lee be the one paying for the poor concepts worse-executed and use it to superb level. To put it another way, there was only one player at Gettysburg and that was Meade. Lee wasn't remotely considering having to fight a battle after four weeks pillaging Pennsylvania, and floundered when he had to fight a battle without any prior preparation. AFTER FOUR WEEKS. :rolleyes::mad:
 
I find Jackson to a personal insperation to me and am very interested in the man, but I have so say that I am dissipointed when most materials on him talk only of his virtues like you've said. Could you refer me to any sources that you've come accross that give details on Jackson that humanize him more by giving all the detials pretty or not?

I haven't read a lot in the way of biography - just Mighty Stonewall - but look at how he treated Garnett after Kernstown. Look at his attitude towards the soldiers he's marching into the ground.

"Jackson was a fanatic" hides the sheer dickishness under a mask of religion.

I'm not saying he was all bad - the human being who cried at the death of a little girl he'd grown close to is very endearing. But a good, bare bones factual viewing of his behavior to his subordinates should do to show how nasty he was.

Then there are other things, like his pre-war quarrel with a fellow officer. I don't remember the details offhand (or who the other guy was), but it was Jackson being petty and rules obsessed to the point its very hard to sympathize with him.

In some ways, Jackson was a rather inspiring fellow, so I'll let Snake point out how being a devout Christian just makes him a bigger asshole, not less, but his war record - as stated - involves treating his subordinates worse than Bragg ever did.
 
To me Gettysburg was unwinnable for a single, simple fact that escapes almost every recounting of the battle: Lee spent an entire month rampaging through Pennsylvania and was completely shocked the AoTP was coming after him after four full fucking weeks. :rolleyes::mad:

If this is the starting point, it doesn't matter what minor miracles Lee or his subordinates work, the whole thing is starting on a poor footing. For the Army of the Potomac it really was an awesome victory, as they had a chance to make Lee be the one paying for the poor concepts worse-executed and use it to superb level. To put it another way, there was only one player at Gettysburg and that was Meade. Lee wasn't remotely considering having to fight a battle after four weeks pillaging Pennsylvania, and floundered when he had to fight a battle without any prior preparation. AFTER FOUR WEEKS. :rolleyes::mad:

Agreed. Tactics we can debate until given the chance to personally chew out Lee. Strategy...if this was the campaign Lee argued needed concentrating troops to make the most use of them where they could do some good, and he managed it this...lamely...I'm not sure it would have been that much worse to send them to Bragg, who at least would have delayed Rosecrans for a few months in exchange for getting a couple divisions gutted.

That's really not a good thing for the Confederacy, given that this (the Gettysburg campaign) very much could have been better with the men it had to work with.

Both as in the numbers and the leaders.
 
Then there are other things, like his pre-war quarrel with a fellow officer. I don't remember the details offhand (or who the other guy was), but it was Jackson being petty and rules obsessed to the point its very hard to sympathize with him.

In some ways, Jackson was a rather inspiring fellow, so I'll let Snake point out how being a devout Christian just makes him a bigger asshole, not less, but his war record - as stated - involves treating his subordinates worse than Bragg ever did.

The way it made him a bigger asshole was simple: Jackson was a religious fanatic who literally exhausted his men in the kind of marches that earned someone like Braxton Bragg a bad name. At least in Bragg's case his men had a general who was doing this for a purpose. For Jackson's men being marched to exhaustion by a dour Presbyterian who told them nothing and facing tactical errors that caused some of the highest casualty rates in the ANV was not a pleasant experience. Too, Bragg wasn't half the asshole about say, leave, that Jackson was. Jackson actually had one of his officers ask him for leave when his wife was in labor and Jackson in no uncertain terms told him "NO".

And this is the guy who was the great Confederate hero of the actual Civil War time. :rolleyes::mad::mad:
 
Agreed. Tactics we can debate until given the chance to personally chew out Lee. Strategy...if this was the campaign Lee argued needed concentrating troops to make the most use of them where they could do some good, and he managed it this...lamely...I'm not sure it would have been that much worse to send them to Bragg, who at least would have delayed Rosecrans for a few months in exchange for getting a couple divisions gutted.

That's really not a good thing for the Confederacy, given that this (the Gettysburg campaign) very much could have been better with the men it had to work with.

Both as in the numbers and the leaders.

At the very least Lee should have expected that he would at some point be likely to face the AoTP and been prepared with a position to fall back on and using what cavalry was available to him to keep one eye on the enemy. From a CS point of view there was no excuse for the surprise Lee had in the lead-in to the battle. Meade justly had his finest hour thanks to this and I give that man full credit for it.
 
The way it made him a bigger asshole was simple: Jackson was a religious fanatic who literally exhausted his men in the kind of marches that earned someone like Braxton Bragg a bad name. At least in Bragg's case his men had a general who was doing this for a purpose. For Jackson's men being marched to exhaustion by a dour Presbyterian who told them nothing and facing tactical errors that caused some of the highest casualty rates in the ANV was not a pleasant experience. Too, Bragg wasn't half the asshole about say, leave, that Jackson was. Jackson actually had one of his officers ask him for leave when his wife was in labor and Jackson in no uncertain terms told him "NO".

And this is the guy who was the great Confederate hero of the actual Civil War time. :rolleyes::mad::mad:

Was it labor? Or was she dying?

Or are these two different stories?

Either way, Jackson didn't even try to show compassion while being a general. Not to his own men, not to the enemy.

...

Jackson facing USCT is not a mental image I particularly wanted, Snake. :eek: But I think what we know of him suggests it would be extremely ugly.

Literal mindedly carrying out orders that should never have been issued...at least Forrest recognized belatedly that maybe a massacre wasn't such a great idea.

At the very least Lee should have expected that he would at some point be likely to face the AoTP and been prepared with a position to fall back on and using what cavalry was available to him to keep one eye on the enemy. From a CS point of view there was no excuse for the surprise Lee had in the lead-in to the battle. Meade justly had his finest hour thanks to this and I give that man full credit for it.

Agreed. Lee had a chance to make this (cavalry) work in some useful manner and blew it.

Stuart's ride just ensured he couldn't get away with it.

As for Meade: Yep.
 
Was it labor? Or was she dying?

Or are these two different stories?

Either way, Jackson didn't even try to show compassion while being a general. Not to his own men, not to the enemy.

...

Jackson facing USCT is not a mental image I particularly wanted, Snake. :eek:

She was in labor. Now when Jackson's OWN wife was in that situation, he of course broke his own rules. But his men? Fuggedabout it. By comparison Bragg was Mr. Merciful. :rolleyes:

And of course Bragg really was the least indiscriminate CS general about Soviet-style discipline in terms of how it worked in the West (and again on the flip side the Army of Tennessee was the most enduring CS force of the war and Bragg was the one that built it out of the wreckage of Shiloh.....).
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
He was the first great Confederate hero in his own time.
What about Albert Sidney Johnston? His was the first martyr cult of the Confederacy, no?

What I don't get is why Jackson has the bloody halo of glory he does. I mean, okay, he won battles and was a martyr. Fine. I can see that being glorified. But how him being a bigger prick than Bragg is kinda forgotten disturbs me.
I think his being devoutly religious has something to do with it. He taught his slaves the Bible (a common method of glossing over slaveholding) and he seems to have been quite the Christian Soldier; humble and fighting for God.

Of course, people tend to forget that zealots are an awfully judgmental lot, which may help to explain his Old Testament-level of douchebaggery.

But I'm not an expert on Jackson, and this is just the impression I've gotten over the years.

It does make me wonder at how close Lee and Jackson's actual relationship was, though. "I've lost my right arm," makes them sound like bestest buds, but part of me thinks Lee might have meant it in a more practical sense.
 
She was in labor. Now when Jackson's OWN wife was in that situation, he of course broke his own rules. But his men? Fuggedabout it. By comparison Bragg was Mr. Merciful. :rolleyes:

For some reason, I have a mental image of Bragg sitting at his desk, a pile of paperwork about three feet tall, a dim lamp burning, and crying at the news that his sister died (or something along those lines - the point is the image, not this being an actual scene).

It sounds very Bragglike, and entirely unlike Jackson.

When did Jackson go on leave for his wife? I want to look this up now that you mention it.

Even if it was handled slightly better than pure hypocrisy, Jackson is hard to sympathize with when it comes to his refusal to even try to show humane feelings.

And of course Bragg really was the least indiscriminate CS general about Soviet-style discipline in terms of how it worked in the West (and again on the flip side the Army of Tennessee was the most enduring CS force of the war and Bragg was the one that built it out of the wreckage of Shiloh.....).

Yeah. Bragg, all things said and done, built a fine army if you look at brigade and lower levels.

It went through hell, and it still gave a credible account for itself on the levels the quality of the men was able to make up for the quality of the officers.

Pity that Bragg had to work with subordinates for divisions and corps level that regarded Soviet style discipline as a personal insult.
 
I think his being devoutly religious has something to do with it. He taught his slaves the Bible (a common method of glossing over slaveholding) and he seems to have been quite the Christian Soldier; humble and fighting for God.

Of course, people tend to forget that zealots are an awfully judgmental lot, which may help to explain his Old Testament-level of douchebaggery.

But I'm not an expert on Jackson, and this is just the impression I've gotten over the years.

It does make me wonder at how close Lee and Jackson's actual relationship was, though. "I've lost my right arm," makes them sound like bestest buds, but part of me thinks Lee might have meant it in a more practical sense.

Let's put it this way: Jackson took a full week to die and Lee didn't so much as make a perfunctory visit to him in any of that time. Make of that what you will.
 
I haven't read a lot in the way of biography - just Mighty Stonewall - but look at how he treated Garnett after Kernstown. Look at his attitude towards the soldiers he's marching into the ground.

"Jackson was a fanatic" hides the sheer dickishness under a mask of religion.

I'm not saying he was all bad - the human being who cried at the death of a little girl he'd grown close to is very endearing. But a good, bare bones factual viewing of his behavior to his subordinates should do to show how nasty he was.

Then there are other things, like his pre-war quarrel with a fellow officer. I don't remember the details offhand (or who the other guy was), but it was Jackson being petty and rules obsessed to the point its very hard to sympathize with him.

In some ways, Jackson was a rather inspiring fellow, so I'll let Snake point out how being a devout Christian just makes him a bigger asshole, not less, but his war record - as stated - involves treating his subordinates worse than Bragg ever did.
Thank you. I’ve read that some historians believe that Jackson may have had Asperger's Syndrome. If so than that could account for some of his antisocial behaviors, aloofness, and harshness as well as his creativity and intellect. Not to mention it also makes his obsession with religion, organization, and distrust of others seem to make a lot more sense. That’s actually the reason why I find him to be inspiring since I have Asperger’s myself. I’m happy to see that it’s possible that one of the greatest generals in American history had the same condition as myself, which some see as a disability, and it may be because of that condition that he became such a success. I’ll admit he wasn’t the best example of a human being but he at least tried to be.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
"Jackson was a fanatic" hides the sheer dickishness under a mask of religion.
I don't think it hides anything, but rather gives us insight as to how he legitimized his own behavior and the prism through which he saw the world: absolutist and dogmatic. After all, I hear that having God on your side does wonders for confidence.
 
Thank you. I’ve read that some historians believe that Jackson may have had Asperger's Syndrome. If so than that could account for some of his antisocial behaviors, aloofness, and harshness as well as his creativity and intellect. Not to mention it also makes his obsession with religion, organization, and distrust of others seem to make a lot more sense. That’s actually the reason why I find him to be inspiring since I have Asperger’s myself. I’m happy to see that it’s possible that one of the greatest generals in American history had the same condition as myself, which some see as a disability, and it may be because of that condition that he became such a success. I’ll admit he wasn’t the best example of a human being but he at least tried to be.

I think so (on him having Asperger's), personally.

As someone with the condition as well, I think he's a good example of it as a mixed blessing. Jackson was frighteningly narrow minded, as well as good at what he set his mind to (his ability to force himself to grasp terrain comes to mind as something where sheer will/focus is awesome).

But I think him being a rotten human being has to do with what he didn't try to do.

The man could and did feel love, so him refusing leave and such seems less unavoidable and more a deliberate choice.
 
I don't think it hides anything, but rather gives us insight as to how he legitimized his own behavior. After all, I hear that having God on your side does wonders for confidence.

This is true. What I meant was, people present him as a fanatic because it sounds nicer than him just being a douchebag.
 
Top