Who should rule Spain in A Britain of Panthers and Lions?

Who should rule Spain?

  • Felipe V

    Votes: 8 20.0%
  • Maria Antonia of Austria

    Votes: 32 80.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .
Why surrender a Kingdom in your family for generations to another House (granted they are friendly for now....). I wouldn't characterise her childbearing record as atrocious, sounds like she's being blamed for her kids dying.

I'm not blaming her, I just think that (much like her mother and sister-in-law, the dauphine), she barely had time to recover between the pregnancies:
Mom, married in December 1666
Ferdinand Wenzel (b.September 1667) - I'm guessing he was a wedding night baby.
Maria Antonia (b. January 1669)
Johann Leopold (b. February 1670)
Maria Anna (b.February 1672)
Plus she had 2 miscarriages - in 1668 and 1671 and when she died according to the one German source on her, she was several months pregnant as well.

Marie Anne Victoire of Bavaria, Dauphine de France married in March 1680
Miscarriage (1680)
Miscarriage (1681)
Louis, Duc de Bourgogne (b.August 1682)
Philippe, Duc d'Anjou (b.December 1683)
3 Miscarriages in 1685!
Charles, Duc de Berri (b. 1686)

Maria Antonia of Austria, married in 1685
Miscarriage (1687)
Miscarriage (1688)
Leopold Ferdinand (b.April 1689)
Anton (b.1690)
Miscarriage (1691)
Josef Ferdinand Leopold (b.October 1692)

Is it any wonder that these women died? Its as Marie Leszczynska said, always either being taken to bed or brought to bed.
 
I'm not blaming her, I just think that (much like her mother and sister-in-law, the dauphine), she barely had time to recover between the pregnancies:
Mom, married in December 1666
Ferdinand Wenzel (b.September 1667) - I'm guessing he was a wedding night baby.
Maria Antonia (b. January 1669)
Johann Leopold (b. February 1670)
Maria Anna (b.February 1672)
Plus she had 2 miscarriages - in 1668 and 1671 and when she died according to the one German source on her, she was several months pregnant as well.

Marie Anne Victoire of Bavaria, Dauphine de France married in March 1680
Miscarriage (1680)
Miscarriage (1681)
Louis, Duc de Bourgogne (b.August 1682)
Philippe, Duc d'Anjou (b.December 1683)
3 Miscarriages in 1685!
Charles, Duc de Berri (b. 1686)

Maria Antonia of Austria, married in 1685
Miscarriage (1687)
Miscarriage (1688)
Leopold Ferdinand (b.April 1689)
Anton (b.1690)
Miscarriage (1691)
Josef Ferdinand Leopold (b.October 1692)

Is it any wonder that these women died? Its as Marie Leszczynska said, always either being taken to bed or brought to bed.
With a daughter and now a son alive, that should ease her burden no?
 
If Maria Antonia does ascend the throne, would she give up Milan to the Habsburgs, and potentially have her daughter and her daughter's husband ruling the Spanish Netherlands?

What of Naples and Sicily, as the dowry for Maria Theresa was never paid in full, or at all. And Maria's renunciation of her rights was only valid on the dowry being paid.
 
With a daughter and now a son alive, that should ease her burden no?

Depends when Junior and Missy make their appearances. If Junior shows up before Missy, the pressure's off - although if Junior is OTL Josef Ferdinand, she's still been ravaged by six previous pregnancies that she's never had the chance to recover from properly. So maybe if Leopold Ferdinand were to survive, it would probably butterfly Anton and maybe the 1691 pregnancy. Josef Ferdinand might be born a girl instead (Margarethe Antonia). And she might be alive for a bit longer.

Which would push off Max II's marriage to the Polish princess, though Liselotte certainly thought that Max II's kids by Teresa Kunigonde weren't his, but rather that they bore a startling resemblance to Teresa's doctor, Spignoli (?). I doubt Liselotte would dare say/imply the same of an Austrian archduchess.

Why surrender a Kingdom in your family for generations to another House (granted they are friendly for now....).

The idea was that an Iberian Union would be an accident. She has a surviving brother now, who's married to an Austrian archduchess, and she gets married off to a Braganca prince. Then her brother dies without issue, and she and her Portuguese husband wind up on the throne of Spain. Then something happens to his older brother (if it's the duke of Beja and not Joao V), and he winds up as king of Portugal. Or them becoming king of Portugal could be further down the line.
 
Depends when Junior and Missy make their appearances. If Junior shows up before Missy, the pressure's off - although if Junior is OTL Josef Ferdinand, she's still been ravaged by six previous pregnancies that she's never had the chance to recover from properly. So maybe if Leopold Ferdinand were to survive, it would probably butterfly Anton and maybe the 1691 pregnancy. Josef Ferdinand might be born a girl instead (Margarethe Antonia). And she might be alive for a bit longer.

Which would push off Max II's marriage to the Polish princess, though Liselotte certainly thought that Max II's kids by Teresa Kunigonde weren't his, but rather that they bore a startling resemblance to Teresa's doctor, Spignoli (?). I doubt Liselotte would dare say/imply the same of an Austrian archduchess.



The idea was that an Iberian Union would be an accident. She has a surviving brother now, who's married to an Austrian archduchess, and she gets married off to a Braganca prince. Then her brother dies without issue, and she and her Portuguese husband wind up on the throne of Spain. Then something happens to his older brother (if it's the duke of Beja and not Joao V), and he winds up as king of Portugal. Or them becoming king of Portugal could be further down the line.

Interesting, well currently in A Britain of Panthers and Lions, Maria and Maximillian's children are:

Margaret Theresa (b.1689)

Leopold (b.1690)

Both of whom are relatively healthy.
 
Interesting, well currently in A Britain of Panthers and Lions, Maria and Maximillian's children are:

Margaret Theresa (b.1689)

Leopold (b.1690)

Both of whom are relatively healthy.

Should be enough to relieve the pressure. Which would butterfly the 1691 and 1692 pregnancies, most likely. Then she can pick up in 1693. This is from Liselotte's letters about Max:

...This Prince's amorous intrigues have been by no means agreeable to the King. The Elector was so fond of grisettes that, when the King was giving names to each of the roads through the wood, he was exceedingly anxious that one of them should be called L'Allee des Grisettes; but the King would not consent to it. The Elector has perpetuated his race in the villages; and two country girls have been pointed out to me who were pregnant by him at his departure...
...His marriage with a Polish Princess is a striking proof that a man cannot avoid his fate. This was not a suitable match for him, and was managed almost without his knowledge, as I have been told. His Councillors, having been bought over, patched up the affair; and when the Elector only caused it to be submitted for their deliberation, it was already decided on...
...
Great suspicions are entertained respecting the children of the Bavaria family, that is, the Elector and his brothers, who are thought to have been the progeny of an Italian doctor named Simoni. It was said at Court that the doctor had only given the Elector and his wife a strong cordial, the effect of which had been to increase their family; but they are all most suspiciously like the doctor...
 
Should be enough to relieve the pressure. Which would butterfly the 1691 and 1692 pregnancies, most likely. Then she can pick up in 1693. This is from Liselotte's letters about Max:

Alright that makes sense, would you want Maria Antonia to be succeded by her son then or by a daughter?

And that quoted bit is quite interesting
 
I'm not blaming her, I just think that (much like her mother and sister-in-law, the dauphine), she barely had time to recover between the pregnancies:
Mom, married in December 1666
Ferdinand Wenzel (b.September 1667) - I'm guessing he was a wedding night baby.
Maria Antonia (b. January 1669)
Johann Leopold (b. February 1670)
Maria Anna (b.February 1672)
Plus she had 2 miscarriages - in 1668 and 1671 and when she died according to the one German source on her, she was several months pregnant as well.

Marie Anne Victoire of Bavaria, Dauphine de France married in March 1680
Miscarriage (1680)
Miscarriage (1681)
Louis, Duc de Bourgogne (b.August 1682)
Philippe, Duc d'Anjou (b.December 1683)
3 Miscarriages in 1685!
Charles, Duc de Berri (b. 1686)

Maria Antonia of Austria, married in 1685
Miscarriage (1687)
Miscarriage (1688)
Leopold Ferdinand (b.April 1689)
Anton (b.1690)
Miscarriage (1691)
Josef Ferdinand Leopold (b.October 1692)

Is it any wonder that these women died? Its as Marie Leszczynska said, always either being taken to bed or brought to bed.

My bad, interpreted the statement incorrectly
 
If Maria Antonia does ascend the throne, would she give up Milan to the Habsburgs, and potentially have her daughter and her daughter's husband ruling the Spanish Netherlands?

What of Naples and Sicily, as the dowry for Maria Theresa was never paid in full, or at all. And Maria's renunciation of her rights was only valid on the dowry being paid.
Well Leopold can always said who Karl V assigned the Duchy of Milan to Philip (II) and his male heirs and with the main line extinct he has the right to decide who will be the next Duke of Milan...

Maria Theresa renunciation to Spain was not valid only if the dowry was fully paid, because the dowry was the compensation for the renounce and not the condition. With the dowry fully paid Maria Theresa’s right on Spain are inexistent (like the ones of her mother-in-law), without that they are questionable and her claim is still not good as that of her niece who is the legittimate heiress because her mother was married with full rights. Maria Theresa’s grandchild can be a serious contendent only after all the line of Margarita Teresa is extinct, before that he is just a pretender with more or less the same right of the Austrian Emperor (who is the son of the sister of Philip IV who never renounced to anything) so have an inferior claim to his daughter by Margarita.
 
Well Leopold can always said who Karl V assigned the Duchy of Milan to Philip (II) and his male heirs and with the main line extinct he has the right to decide who will be the next Duke of Milan...

Maria Theresa renunciation to Spain was not valid only if the dowry was fully paid, because the dowry was the compensation for the renounce and not the condition. With the dowry fully paid Maria Theresa’s right on Spain are inexistent (like the ones of her mother-in-law), without that they are questionable and her claim is still not good as that of her niece who is the legittimate heiress because her mother was married with full rights. Maria Theresa’s grandchild can be a serious contendent only after all the line of Margarita Teresa is extinct, before that he is just a pretender with more or less the same right of the Austrian Emperor (who is the son of the sister of Philip IV who never renounced to anything) so have an inferior claim to his daughter by Margarita.
Interesting does change this tho


The negotiations for the marriage contract were intense. Eager to prevent a union of the two countries or crowns, especially one in which Spain would be subservient to France, the diplomats sought to include a renunciation clause that would deprive Maria Theresa and her children of any rights to the Spanish succession. This was eventually done but, by the skill of Mazarin and his French diplomats, the renunciation and its validity were made conditional upon the payment of a large dowry. As it turned out, Spain, impoverished and bankrupt after decades of war, was unable to pay such a dowry, and France never received the agreed upon sum of 500,000 écus.[3]
 
If I was Louis XIV, the only way I’m allowing a non Bourbon to inherit Spain is if I get the non Iberian European lands (Naples, Milan, Spanish Netherlands) as compensation since that dowry was never paid.
 
If I was Louis XIV, the only way I’m allowing a non Bourbon to inherit Spain is if I get the non Iberian European lands (Naples, Milan, Spanish Netherlands) as compensation since that dowry was never paid.
Agree about Naples, Milan was an imperial fief though
 
Agree about Naples, Milan was an imperial fief though

And Britain won't - doesn't matter the dynasty - let France take the Spanish Netherlands.

So you'd have a scenario like this:
Wittelsbachs (heirs of Maria Antonia) take Spain, her empire and MAYBE the Spanish Netherlands (Max II was appointed governor in the 1690s apparently)
Habsburgs go for Milan and the Netherlands (if Bavaria doesn't get them. If Bavaria DOES the Habsburgs might trade them for Bavaria - think of a 1700s version of the War of the Bavarian Succession).
France gets Naples.

Now there were ALSO the fates of one or twocItalian states in the balance at Utrecht - most notably Tuscany. Provided that the Medici are still childless, then that might go back to Austria (as an imperial fief, although Siena and Presidi were Spanish fiefs and Florence itself a papal one (I could be wrong about who owns what but I know it was a hotmess of overlapping fiefdoms)), or we might see an OTL situation where it goes to the Bourbons (with or without Naples)
 
And Britain won't - doesn't matter the dynasty - let France take the Spanish Netherlands.

So you'd have a scenario like this:
Wittelsbachs (heirs of Maria Antonia) take Spain, her empire and MAYBE the Spanish Netherlands (Max II was appointed governor in the 1690s apparently)
Habsburgs go for Milan and the Netherlands (if Bavaria doesn't get them. If Bavaria DOES the Habsburgs might trade them for Bavaria - think of a 1700s version of the War of the Bavarian Succession).
France gets Naples.

Now there were ALSO the fates of one or twocItalian states in the balance at Utrecht - most notably Tuscany. Provided that the Medici are still childless, then that might go back to Austria (as an imperial fief, although Siena and Presidi were Spanish fiefs and Florence itself a papal one (I could be wrong about who owns what but I know it was a hotmess of overlapping fiefdoms)), or we might see an OTL situation where it goes to the Bourbons (with or without Naples)
Hmm interesting, would the wittlesbachs be willing to hand over Bavaria for their kingdom of Spain?

And could this be achieved with or without a war?
 
Hmm interesting, would the wittlesbachs be willing to hand over Bavaria for their kingdom of Spain?

And could this be achieved with or without a war?

Depends really. In a situation like OTL where Maximilian II Emanuel had no other crown to his name, he probably wouldn't sacrifice his patrimony - more likely just split it (disinherit Josef Ferdinand from Bavaria, and leave Bavaria to his kids from his 2e marriage). But here, where Max doesn't have 2 families to think about (yet), he might be more open to the idea.

Would it result in a war? Not sure. Austria took Bavaria in the WoSS without too much outside trouble. The problems came from inside. And France MIGHT be content getting a friendly power (the Wittelsbachs) next door if THEY can't get the SN they don't want Austria getting it. The French were the main movers (IIRC) for Max getting compensation elsewhere if Austria wouldn't disgorge Bavaria.

However the "friendly" power might not be so friendly anymore. Bavaria would now control Spain AND the SN which means its just a replacement for the Habsburg state of affairs previously. So France might not mind Austria keeping the SN (although France may attempt to trade Naples for the SN).
 
Depends really. In a situation like OTL where Maximilian II Emanuel had no other crown to his name, he probably wouldn't sacrifice his patrimony - more likely just split it (disinherit Josef Ferdinand from Bavaria, and leave Bavaria to his kids from his 2e marriage). But here, where Max doesn't have 2 families to think about (yet), he might be more open to the idea.

Would it result in a war? Not sure. Austria took Bavaria in the WoSS without too much outside trouble. The problems came from inside. And France MIGHT be content getting a friendly power (the Wittelsbachs) next door if THEY can't get the SN they don't want Austria getting it. The French were the main movers (IIRC) for Max getting compensation elsewhere if Austria wouldn't disgorge Bavaria.

However the "friendly" power might not be so friendly anymore. Bavaria would now control Spain AND the SN which means its just a replacement for the Habsburg state of affairs previously. So France might not mind Austria keeping the SN (although France may attempt to trade Naples for the SN).

Hmm interesting, and of course there's the whole thing of giving Philip, Duke of Anjou something as well I imagine, unless he doesn't marry his first wife, and is proposed as Elisabeth Farnese's husband from the off?
 
Hmm interesting, and of course there's the whole thing of giving Philip, Duke of Anjou something as well I imagine, unless he doesn't marry his first wife, and is proposed as Elisabeth Farnese's husband from the off?

Unlikely he'll marry la Farnese, Versailles was against that match from off the bat. If Austria-France come to an agreement (before 1697) its likely Philippe marries Elisabeth or Maria Anna of Austria (as was intended), with Élisabeth Charlotte d'Orléans wedding Josef I. Otherwise Philippe marries la Savoyana first and either Maria Magdalene of Austria (who was proposed 2e time around) or La Consolatrice Stuart (if she hasn't already wed the duc de Berri). La Farnese probably stays as nothing more than a duchess of Savoy or Modena
 
Unlikely he'll marry la Farnese, Versailles was against that match from off the bat. If Austria-France come to an agreement (before 1697) its likely Philippe marries Elisabeth or Maria Anna of Austria (as was intended), with Élisabeth Charlotte d'Orléans wedding Josef I. Otherwise Philippe marries la Savoyana first and either Maria Magdalene of Austria (who was proposed 2e time around) or La Consolatrice Stuart (if she hasn't already wed the duc de Berri). La Farnese probably stays as nothing more than a duchess of Savoy or Modena

Alright interesting, and La Consolatrice Stuart?

if Philip does end up as King of Naples, would he be dictating his own marriage policy, or would that be the realm of Versailles?
 
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