Who should rule Spain in A Britain of Panthers and Lions?

Who should rule Spain?

  • Felipe V

    Votes: 8 20.0%
  • Maria Antonia of Austria

    Votes: 32 80.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .
So, this is a bit of a change for me, but considering what to do with Spain for my timeline, and was wondering what you all thought.

Should Spain go to the House of Bourbon as it did otl, or should Maria Antonia of Austria survive and her line of descent rule over Spain?
 
I would love to see a Wittelbach Spain, where the Austrians end up annexing Bavaria against giving it up. So we get a Austria gaining Bavaria, Spanish Netherlands and Milan, while Felipe become king of Naples and Sardinia and Savoy gaining Sicily.
 
I would love to see a Wittelbach Spain, where the Austrians end up annexing Bavaria against giving it up. So we get a Austria gaining Bavaria, Spanish Netherlands and Milan, while Felipe become king of Naples and Sardinia and Savoy gaining Sicily.
Oooh interesting, me thinks war
 

I voted for Maria Antonia, but I just don't like Maximilian Emmanuel (once bitten twice shy, though he hasn't bitten yet). I'd prefer it if they had a daughter as an heir that then married another Habsburg (I know, hopefully we get a Danish bride for Joseph I and Caroline of Ansbach for Charles to introduce new lineages to the Habsburgs that way it won't be as bad given that they're also half brothers to Maria Antonia; I like to imagine Charles & Caroline ruling over the S. Netherlands like Albrecht & Isabella Clara) or a Branganca (though they too are of Capet) or even better a local Spanish nobleman and setting up a new dynasty there.
 
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I voted for Maria Antonia, but I just don't like Maximilian Emmanuel (once bitten twice shy, though he hasn't bitten yet). I'd prefer it if they had a daughter as an heir that then married another Habsburg (icky I know) or a Branganca (though they too are of Capet) or even better a local Spanish nobleman and setting up a new dynasty there.

Interesting, not a fan of Carl, or would you prefer Margaret Theresa who is Maria Antonia's daughter marry Karl, than Maria Antonia ascend the throne straight off?

A marriage to a Spanish nobleman does seem unlikely though.
 
Interesting, not a fan of Carl, or would you prefer Margaret Theresa who is Maria Antonia's daughter marry Karl, than Maria Antonia ascend the throne straight off?

A marriage to a Spanish nobleman does seem unlikely though.

Yeah, the Spanish nobleman was something of a hail Mary, edited my comment to be more expansive of what I imagine before I got the reply notification. Not happy with too consanguineous relations so I was thinking Maria Antonia's daughter marry a son of Charles or Joseph.
 
Yeah, the Spanish nobleman was something of a hail Mary, edited my comment to be more expansive of what I imagine before I got the reply notification. Not happy with too consanguineous relations so I was thinking Maria Antonia's daughter marry a son of Charles or Joseph.

Hmm interesting, given the age difference between Carl and Margaret Theresa, it does seem unlikely Margaret would marry a son of Carl or Joseph, given Margaret was born in 1689.

As for Caroline, I can tell you she's likely marrying James, Prince of Wales.
 
Hmm interesting, given the age difference between Carl and Margaret Theresa, it does seem unlikely Margaret would marry a son of Carl or Joseph, given Margaret was born in 1689.

As for Caroline, I can tell you she's likely marrying James, Prince of Wales.

Ah well, Maria Theresia is how I got into the Habsburgs so I'm still happy with Charles & Elisabeth Christine. (Was totally with the Ottomans before Civ V (got into Civ because of Ramesses, fan if ancient Egypt before then) introduced me to Maria Theresia)

Also hint hint, I've been saying a daughter of Maria Antonia (assuming she lives past 1692 and has a another daughter later and the other kids predecease her with no progeny, leaving the youngest daughter born circa 1700-1705 as her heir, Maria Antonia is her early 30's still can have kids. 1695 - Sophia Hedwig of Denmark (18yo) weds Joseph I(17yo), they've got a good 5 year window to have a son that'll marry the daughter of Maria Antonia.) I agree Charles is more difficult though especially if he doesn't marry Caroline of Ansbach around 1703/1704. Don't mind my musing, like to see where the TL goes.
 
Ah well, Maria Theresia is how I got into the Habsburgs so I'm still happy with Charles & Elisabeth Christine. (Was totally with the Ottomans before Civ V (got into Civ because of Ramesses, fan if ancient Egypt before then) introduced me to Maria Theresia)

Also hint hint, I've been saying a daughter of Maria Antonia (assuming she lives past 1692 and has a another daughter later and the other kids predecease her with no progeny, leaving the youngest daughter born circa 1700-1705 as her heir, Maria Antonia is her early 30's still can have kids. 1695 - Sophia Hedwig of Denmark (18yo) weds Joseph I(17yo), they've got a good 5 year window to have a son that'll marry the daughter of Maria Antonia.) I agree Charles is more difficult though especially if he doesn't marry Caroline of Ansbach around 1703/1704. Don't mind my musing, like to see where the TL goes.

Hmm interesting, so you'd rather a daughter marry a cousin, than go for broke? Especially with Leopold wanting his son to get a throne? I do wonder though, the Wittlesbachs might get the straight Spanish inheritance without a break up, though I can see Louis XIV fighting for Naples for his grandson.

And would Sophia Hedwig convert here? She didn't otl, or rather she refused to.
 
Hmm interesting, so you'd rather a daughter marry a cousin, than go for broke? Especially with Leopold wanting his son to get a throne? I do wonder though, the Wittlesbachs might get the straight Spanish inheritance without a break up, though I can see Louis XIV fighting for Naples for his grandson.

And would Sophia Hedwig convert here? She didn't otl, or rather she refused to.

My reasoning is simply to avoid the WoSS.
I can still see & agree with Louis XIV trying to get something as he'd use the same excuse of the War of Devolution again, but if Maria Antonia is alive she's the best heir. Attempts by Louis XIV to get something will be met badly with "Again Louis! You damn Frenchies need to stop" :closedeyesmile:

Without any sons and depending on when Charles II passes it can we arranged for the realms to pass back into the house of Habsburg.

Sophia Hedwig converting was a convenient literary plot to have a son for Joseph early enough with a more distant lineage relative to than Maria Antonia.

Maybe a peace after Louis XIV strikes (being realistic) will remove the S. Netherlands & Milan from Spain with the rest going to Maria Antonia and nothing for the French (what I want) or some territorial gains in the S. Netherlands to France (likely end result).

If we use OTL dates with Maria Antonia living longer but her son died, Maximilian Emmanuel aims to reconcile with her because it's a way to attain power and they have a daughter in 1700 just before Charles II's death. If Leopold had grandsons already (better with even 2, so the younger brother would marry that daughter) by Joseph & Sophia Hedwig, it'd keep the realms under the House of Habsburg albeit via a temporary (co-) reign of House Wittlesbach and assuming this daughter (of Maria Antonia) and son (of Joseph I) lives long enough to wed and have kids of their own.

The main ploy that wouldn't be the easiest to drive away is Max Emmanuel, I can see him opposing such an arrangement if Maria Antonia predeceases him and marrying the daughter to a fellow Wittlesbach.
 
My reasoning is simply to avoid the WoSS.
I can still see & agree with Louis XIV trying to get something as he'd use the same excuse of the War of Devolution again, but if Maria Antonia is alive she's the best heir. Attempts by Louis XIV to get something will be met badly with "Again Louis! You damn Frenchies need to stop" :closedeyesmile:

Without any sons and depending on when Charles II passes it can we arranged for the realms to pass back into the house of Habsburg.

Sophia Hedwig converting was a convenient literary plot to have a son for Joseph early enough with a more distant lineage relative to than Maria Antonia.

Maybe a peace after Louis XIV strikes (being realistic) will remove the S. Netherlands & Milan from Spain with the rest going to Maria Antonia and nothing for the French (what I want) or some territorial gains in the S. Netherlands to France (likely end result).

If we use OTL dates with Maria Antonia living longer but her son died, Maximilian Emmanuel aims to reconcile with her because it's a way to attain power and they have a daughter in 1700 just before Charles II's death. If Leopold had grandsons already (better with even 2, so the younger brother would marry that daughter) by Joseph & Sophia Hedwig, it'd keep the realms under the House of Habsburg albeit via a temporary (co-) reign of House Wittlesbach and assuming this daughter (of Maria Antonia) and son (of Joseph I) lives long enough to wed and have kids of their own.

The main ploy that wouldn't be the easiest to drive away is Max Emmanuel, I can see him opposing such an arrangement if Maria Antonia predeceases him and marrying the daughter to a fellow Wittlesbach.

Interesting, though would there be another Wittlesbach to marry her to? After all his brother is in the church, and the other branches were at oods and ends with the mainline at times.

I can see Louis wanting the Italian lands and the Spanish Netherlands for his family. Italy, as it gives a kingdom for Philip.
 
Interesting, though would there be another Wittlesbach to marry her to? After all his brother is in the church, and the other branches were at oods and ends with the mainline at times.

I can see Louis wanting the Italian lands and the Spanish Netherlands for his family. Italy, as it gives a kingdom for Philip.

I wouldn't underestimate that man's ambition and he has diplomatic cover as well. The next senior most line I think is Palatinate-Neuberg current electors of Palatinate. Not only is the senior most daughter the Holy Roman empress, the current Queen dowager of Spain (apparently not well liked) is from that line, the last Queen of Portugal (much loved per Wikipedia) is also from that line.

(I think the Portuguese relations of that line would give him political capital within Iberia. An imperial match while still related to Portugal & more prestigious, could somewhat be seen as making Spain a secondary player/puppet to the Emperor in Vienna and is more distant)

The spoiler is that the Neuberg line died out the male line in the 1700's. But one couldn't anticipate that then, Charles III Philip of nueberg second wife died in 1712. He could've been cajoled into marrying earlier and if Max Emmanuel really wanted to scheme, he'd arrange for Charles III to marry Francisca Josefa of Portugal. A son born of that union would be perfect (though there is the issue of age difference between them, at best it's about 10 years)
 
Hmm interesting. So a daughter Esther than a son, and the potential that the wittlesbach themselves are replaced by another dynasty as a result interesting
 
If we're suggesting a daughter for Maria Antonia (TBH, her OTL childbearing record was somewhat atrocious - 7 kids between her marriage and death, of whom only two survived longer than a day), why not a match with one of the king of Portugal's younger sons? The OTL duke of Beja was considered for Maria Magdalene of Austria (as was Felipe V IIRC), so if Leopold could swing it, why not marry his daughter (Maria Anna) to Joao V, and his granddaughter to Francisco, duke of Beja.
 
If we're suggesting a daughter for Maria Antonia (TBH, her OTL childbearing record was somewhat atrocious - 7 kids between her marriage and death, of whom only two survived longer than a day), why not a match with one of the king of Portugal's younger sons? The OTL duke of Beja was considered for Maria Magdalene of Austria (as was Felipe V IIRC), so if Leopold could swing it, why not marry his daughter (Maria Anna) to Joao V, and his granddaughter to Francisco, duke of Beja.


Assuming of course she has only girls could be fascinating
 
If we're suggesting a daughter for Maria Antonia (TBH, her OTL childbearing record was somewhat atrocious - 7 kids between her marriage and death, of whom only two survived longer than a day), why not a match with one of the king of Portugal's younger sons? The OTL duke of Beja was considered for Maria Magdalene of Austria (as was Felipe V IIRC), so if Leopold could swing it, why not marry his daughter (Maria Anna) to Joao V, and his granddaughter to Francisco, duke of Beja.

Why surrender a Kingdom in your family for generations to another House (granted they are friendly for now....). I wouldn't characterise her childbearing record as atrocious, sounds like she's being blamed for her kids dying.
 
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