Whitlam expelled from the Labor Party in 1967

In 1966, Gough Whitlam, soon to be leader of the Labor Party, called the Federal Executive of his party the 'twelve witless men', during a spat over state aid for private schools.

He was called before the Federal Executive for disciplining, and managed to stay in the party by a 7-5 vote. Had it gone the other way, he would have been expelled.

So, what happens if the vote had gone the other way? (This article provides a possible POD-the Queensland delegates change their votes). If Gough is expelled from the Labor Party in 1966, then who becomes leader after Calwell resigns in 1967? Whither Australia?
 
The ALP stays in the political wilderness until Hawke comes along. So no Labor govt until mid 1980s. Instead we get about 12 years of Billy McMahon. Talk about an Australian dystopia! :eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
The ALP stays in the political wilderness until Hawke comes along. So no Labor govt until mid 1980s. Instead we get about 12 years of Billy McMahon. Talk about an Australian dystopia! :eek::eek::eek::eek:

12 years? I think you need way more :eek: for that! ;)

Actually, one of the reasons Gorton fell in the first place was that Whitlam used to beat him like an egg in Parliament. In fact, it's also been suggested that Holt drowned because of his worry over plotting against him in the party, also motivated by Whitlam's persistent parliamentary superiority over him (in an age where that meant something; today, we get an aggrieved duck and a mandarin as our parliament's finest). So the butterflies from a Whitlam expulsion could easily keep Holt alive, and indeed leading well into the 70s.

It gets worse, though; Whitlam's main challenger at the time was Jim Cairns, who nearly beat him in a 1968 leadership ballot. Yes, Jim Cairns, he of 'a kind of love' and the Morosi affair, would be Opposition Leader.

I think Hawke would definitely be made ALP leader as soon as possible; he was already considered as a possible successor to Whitlam in 1975, and having Cairns as leader would definitely force that up a few years. But Labor would probably be out of power by at least five years more, which would leave the Liberals in government during the oil price shock and leave the new Labor government a profoundly 80s creation (even if it came to power in the late 70s). Which means, amongst other things, no Medicare, no free tertiary education, laissez faire economic policy, Reaganite foreign policies and probably no land rights.
 
12 years? I think you need way more :eek: for that! ;)

Actually, one of the reasons Gorton fell in the first place was that Whitlam used to beat him like an egg in Parliament. In fact, it's also been suggested that Holt drowned because of his worry over plotting against him in the party, also motivated by Whitlam's persistent parliamentary superiority over him (in an age where that meant something; today, we get an aggrieved duck and a mandarin as our parliament's finest). So the butterflies from a Whitlam expulsion could easily keep Holt alive, and indeed leading well into the 70s.


I think you're giving far too much credit to Gough for the demise of Gordon. Don't forget Gordon was a Liberal maverick. He wasn't overly liked by his Liberal Party colleagues in the first place for his Australian patriotic ideals which were more Labor orientated than Liberal. Likewise McMahon pretty much hated Gordon -especially in the light that Gordon came down from the Senate in order to become PM at the expense of McMahon in 1968. So it's probably fairer to say, it wasn't Gough who did Gordon in but his own party who decided to crucify him. Needless to say Gordon left the Liberals a few year later & ran as an independent.

Similarly again I'd dare say you're giving far too much credit to Gough for the death of Holt. Whatever really happened to Holt, his motivations for that swim on that fateful day, we'll never really know, but if it was suicide I don't think you can blame the pressures coming from Gough which caused Holt to off himself.



It gets worse, though; Whitlam's main challenger at the time was Jim Cairns, who nearly beat him in a 1968 leadership ballot. Yes, Jim Cairns, he of 'a kind of love' and the Morosi affair, would be Opposition Leader.


And this would ensure the ALP would stay in the political wilderness for several years, although to be fair, when the ALP came to power in 1972, Carins was rather popular with the general public in his own right. It's just that during his time in government he managed to shoot himself, & just about everyone else connected to him, in the foot & then some. In other words the idiotic side of Carins came out after the ALP won the election & not before. So that, in itself, shouldn't have any baring prior to the 1972 election, unless as leader he repeats his OTL antics when in government, albeit as Opposition Leader in your scenario here.


I think Hawke would definitely be made ALP leader as soon as possible; he was already considered as a possible successor to Whitlam in 1975, and having Cairns as leader would definitely force that up a few years. But Labor would probably be out of power by at least five years more, which would leave the Liberals in government during the oil price shock and leave the new Labor government a profoundly 80s creation (even if it came to power in the late 70s). Which means, amongst other things, no Medicare, no free tertiary education, laissez faire economic policy, Reaganite foreign policies and probably no land rights.


Now these are very astute observations which I completely agree with. And add to this list is no Constitutional Crisis. Still, I can't see Hawke becoming leader in 1972 or 75. There's a chance in 1977, but I doubt it. 1980 though is possible.
 
Last edited:
I think you're giving far too much credit to Gough for the demise of Gordon. Don't forget Gordon was a Liberal maverick. He wasn't overly liked by his Liberal Party colleagues in the first place for his Australian patriotic ideals which were more Labor orientated than Liberal. Likewise McMahon pretty much hated Gordon -especially in the light that Gordon came down from the Senate in order to become PM at the expense of McMahon in 1968. So it's probably fairer to say, it wasn't Gough who did Gordon in but his own party who decided to crucify him. Needless to say Gordon left the Liberals a few year later & ran as an independent.

I think Gorton's leaving the Liberals wasn't so much ideological as that he really, really hated Fraser--who, after all, began the crisis that offed him as leader.

Similarly again I'd dare say you're giving far too much credit to Gough for the death of Holt. Whatever really happened to Holt, his motivations for that swim on that fateful day, we'll never really know, but if it was suicide I don't think you can blame the pressures coming from Gough which caused Holt to off himself.

I certainly wasn't implying suicide--merely that he was preoccupied, and thus distracted, and thus...well, I just thought it was an interesting butterfly. Six months without Gough could change anything on the political scene.

And this would ensure the ALP would stay in the political wilderness for several years, although to be fair, when the ALP came to power in 1972, Carins was rather popular with the general public in his own right. It's just that during his time in government he managed to shoot himself, & just about everyone else connected to him, in the foot & then some. In other words the idiotic side of Carins came out after the ALP won the election & not before. So that, in itself, shouldn't have any baring prior to the 1972 election, unless as leader he repeats his OTL antics when in government, albeit as Opposition Leader in your scenario here.

Well...Cairns' actions weren't just one-off, they were the result of deep-seated aspects of his personality. The individualism, the 'alternative lifestyles', the unorthodoxy, the...weirdness...I think that popular or not, a self-destruction would just be a matter of time. Brilliance manifests itself in many ways, and unfortunately for Cairns it came out as...well, selling books in a Melbourne flea market.

Now these are very astute observations which I completely agree with. And add to this list is no Constitutional Crisis. Still, I can't see Hawke becoming leader in 1972 or 75. There's a chance in 1977, but I doubt it. 1980 though is possible.

Actually, having no Whitlam as a martyr would be very interesting. We Aussies do love our martyrs, don't we? No 'Whitlam industry' could completely change how the Australian left look at ourselves. Without Whitlam's reforms in the 1960s, the ALP would remain a very Calwellian body--socially conservative, anti-state aid to private schools, very linked to the unions, and probably more left-wing in general. For the ALP to ever regain power, someone needed to reform the organisation--and that person will not be Cairns, for a whole bunch of reasons. In fact, this raises the very interesting possibility that a John Gorton-led Liberal Party, against a socially conservative, democratic socialist Labor Party, could be much more 'progressive' in many respects.

And I'll grant your points on Hawke--still too young, still too inexperienced. That leaves what, Kim Beazley senior or Fred Daly to take over once Cairns Cairns out?

On another point, what happens to an expelled Whitlam?
 

RKO General

Banned
I'd like to see Kim Beazley Snr get his place in the sun

What about womens rights and racial rights in this timeline - the Womens Electoral Lobby still refers to the Whitlam years as "the best we ever had".
 
I'd like to see Kim Beazley Snr get his place in the sun

What about womens rights and racial rights in this timeline - the Womens Electoral Lobby still refers to the Whitlam years as "the best we ever had".


And Australia will have it's own Uncle Kim :D
 
Fred Daly would be too old by the early '70s for leadership - Frank Crean or Bill Hayden perhaps?

Bill Hayden only really came into his own as Treasurer under Whitlam. Without Labor in government, he won't have been in for long enough to get a chance to shine.

And Frank Crean...well, he made his son look charismatic.
 
I think Gorton's leaving the Liberals wasn't so much ideological as that he really, really hated Fraser--who, after all, began the crisis that offed him as leader.



Which is what I was alluding to, what with all the back stabbing Gordon faced, although I was more so refering to McMahon & company, in regards to 1967-69, rather than later with Fraser.



I certainly wasn't implying suicide--merely that he was preoccupied, and thus distracted, and thus...well, I just thought it was an interesting butterfly. Six months without Gough could change anything on the political scene.


Again I think you're giving too much credit to Gough in 1967. He really didn't reach his peak, as the dominate political player in Parliament, until I'd say 1970 onwards.



Well...Cairns' actions weren't just one-off, they were the result of deep-seated aspects of his personality. The individualism, the 'alternative lifestyles', the unorthodoxy, the...weirdness...I think that popular or not, a self-destruction would just be a matter of time. Brilliance manifests itself in many ways, and unfortunately for Cairns it came out as...well, selling books in a Melbourne flea market.


None of which would surprise me in the least.



Actually, having no Whitlam as a martyr would be very interesting. We Aussies do love our martyrs, don't we? No 'Whitlam industry' could completely change how the Australian left look at ourselves. Without Whitlam's reforms in the 1960s, the ALP would remain a very Calwellian body--socially conservative, anti-state aid to private schools, very linked to the unions, and probably more left-wing in general. For the ALP to ever regain power, someone needed to reform the organisation--and that person will not be Cairns, for a whole bunch of reasons. In fact, this raises the very interesting possibility that a John Gorton-led Liberal Party, against a socially conservative, democratic socialist Labor Party, could be much more 'progressive' in many respects.


And if it wasn't for Gough I wouldn't have written a couple of AHs either... let alone a MA mini-thesis not to mention my abortive PhD. So no 'Whitlam industry' for me :(

Now, for the serious part, I don't think, given no Whitlam, how things could be more 'progressive' at the time in question. I would dare say it'd be very much the reverse, especially in regards to much needed societal reforms.


And I'll grant your points on Hawke--still too young, still too inexperienced. That leaves what, Kim Beazley senior or Fred Daly to take over once Cairns Cairns out?


Fred Daly is an interesting choice I'd dare say.


On another point, what happens to an expelled Whitlam?


He'd go back to being a lawyer which he'd excel at to the point of being a world renowned authority. It wouldn't surprise me either, if he'd end up becoming a High Court judge.
 
Fred Daly would be too old by the early '70s for leadership - Frank Crean or Bill Hayden perhaps?


As I mentioned in passing to Blackmage, I'd dare say Fred Daly is the choice out of that group, although I would suggest that Cairns would probably get first look. Whether Caucus votes for him, I guess is the question, so Daly may get through even if viewed by the general public as second choice
 
Possible roll on effects internationally could be a longer involvement in the Vietnam war, not recognizing The Peoples republic of China until later, the White Australia Policy lingering on making stronger connections to Rhodesia and South Africa.

If Gough sticks it out in parliment there may be a second split in the ALP like in 1955 or better he attracts the disillusioned members from both parties to create a " Democrat" style third party.


One good thing is that without the drama of the Whitlam years the seat of Bennelong would not have changed hands and Australians would only know a slightly overweight but talented actor as John Howard.:D
 
If Gough sticks it out in parliment there may be a second split in the ALP like in 1955 or better he attracts the disillusioned members from both parties to create a " Democrat" style third party.

That's a really interesting thought. If Gough could form a smallish 4-5 senate seat party (and perhaps a house of reps seat or two in Sydney, Adelaide, Byron/Lismore?) for the progressive left then that could result in:

(a) A Democrats party that stays 'centre' and intellectual rather than drifting to the soft left as it has done (and which is about to result in its extinction), since that space is already occupied.

(b) A Greens party which needs to differentiate itself from the 'Gough Party' and perhaps devotes a greater part of its policy to environment issues rather than far left ones.

Incidentally, does not having a Dismissal affect how the Governor-General (and Monarchy) is viewed by the public?

(c)
 
Top