Whither Rome

Philip

Donor
My nitpick to this is that Clovis I converted from paganism to Orthodox Christian. Usually these conversions are much easier politically then conversions from heresy to orthodoxy, as Theodoric would be attempting.

Agreed.

I'll just repeat my assertion that Theodoric would face a serious rebellion in the event of his conversion.

Thanks for the comments. I am going to reconsider this.

I also think it would seriously impede his diplomacy vis a vis the Vandals and Visigoths, especially if your thinking of following OTL in having Theodoric as the Regent of the Visigoths.

I agree. I don't intend to have Theodoric marry off his daughter to Alaric or his sister to Thrasamund.
 
I like this timeline a lot, but I would probably echo MC's reservations regarding conversion.
 

Philip

Donor
Despite the limited size of the sample group, I am going to reconsider Theodoric's conversion. I don't know if I will keep it and up the effects or retcon it.

I like your map style. What program do you use?

For general drawing, I use Paint.NET. Animation is done with unFREEz.
 
I actually do have a final thought of your Theodoric conversion. I absolutely understand why you did it. IMO you're going to need the Ostrogoths to turn Orthodox Christian, so that their OTL Arianism doesn't get in the way of your greater future for them. OTL their Arianism was never a problem because they were wiped out by Justinian, but in your ATL you're probably imagining a brighter future, and to achieve that you need them to convert. You also can't use the Visigoths as a parallel because after the Visigothic Kings converted the Kingdom fell apart.

To suggest a possible different course. What about a Church Council, between the Arian and Western Orthodox clergy? During the early part of OTL Theodoric's reign the Western Church was opposed to the Eastern one, and you have the same split. Perhaps a Council where the two clergies hammer out their differences- the Goths basically accepting whatever theology the West is subscribing to, but the Church agrees to allow vernacular Bibles and Church services, thereby allowing the Goths to keep their Gothic-language bibles. This may short-circuit the rebellion, and allow the Goths greater control over the Western Clergy. Also it would allow all kinds of cryto-Arianism to seep into the Western Church, via the integrated Gothic clergy. I think this is a strech, but then I also think that Theodoric conversion is, so what gives, right?

In conclusion, I think he would have faced the rebellion, but since he is a greater Theodoric, then he can see the long-term benefits that this conversion will bring his people, and he is willing to do it. I personally love this idea and really wish the Ostrogoths had more of a chance to continue their Roman-German blending in Italy, so good luck with this TL.
 

Philip

Donor
I actually do have a final thought of your Theodoric conversion. I absolutely understand why you did it. IMO you're going to need the Ostrogoths to turn Orthodox Christian, so that their OTL Arianism doesn't get in the way of your greater future for them. OTL their Arianism was never a problem because they were wiped out by Justinian, but in your ATL you're probably imagining a brighter future, and to achieve that you need them to convert.

Roughly, yes.

To suggest a possible different course. What about a Church Council, between the Arian and Western Orthodox clergy? During the early part of OTL Theodoric's reign the Western Church was opposed to the Eastern one, and you have the same split. Perhaps a Council where the two clergies hammer out their differences- the Goths basically accepting whatever theology the West is subscribing to,


This is not a bad idea. I already plan on having the Acacian Schism lasting longer than OTL as part of dealing with the East dealing with the monophysite problem. Having the West develop a religious unity between the Romans and Goths could be interesting, especially if it is somewhat of the reverse of OTL. Rather that having the West irritate the East by adding the Filioque to oppose Visigothic Arianism, perhaps the West's accommodations of Arianism is the irritant.


but the Church agrees to allow vernacular Bibles and Church services, thereby allowing the Goths to keep their Gothic-language bibles.

This could lead to an interesting system of parallel societies. The Goths and Romans live under separate legal system that both recognize Theodoric. At the same time, they could have separate ecclesiastical systems that both recognize the Bishop of Rome.

Also it would allow all kinds of cryto-Arianism to seep into the Western Church, via the integrated Gothic clergy.

It frightens me that you thought of that. I was planning roughly the same to happen with the Vandals.

In conclusion, I think he would have faced the rebellion, but since he is a greater Theodoric, then he can see the long-term benefits that this conversion will bring his people, and he is willing to do it.



I personally love this idea and really wish the Ostrogoths had more of a chance to continue their Roman-German blending in Italy, so good luck with this TL.

Thanks for the suggestions.
 

Philip

Donor
Consolidation: Repost and Retcon

Based on input from AH.com members, I am making some changes to the TL. This post supersedes the previous one. Unchanged text is gray. Thanks to those who offered advice, especially Matthais Corvinus.

Consolidation


Excerpt from
History of the Burgundian People
Daniel Arnaut
Marsiho, Gozia: Empire Press (1981)


Chapter 15: The Last King
...
The last decade of the Fifth Century was a relatively peaceful one for most of Western Europe. Theodoric the Great consolidated his control of ItalyDalmatia. Clovis I focused his efforts on reinforcing his dominance of the Franks, while Alaric, King of the Visigoths, learned the art and science of statecraft. Unfortunately, this peace did not extend to the Kingdom of Burgundy. In 491, Gundobad made overtures of reconciliation to his brother Chilperic. He was able to drive a wedge between Chilperic and Godegisel by offering to rule the Burgundians with him. The new alliance was celebrated with a grand banquet at Valentia, Chilperic's capital. After making a toast at the feast, Gundobad strangled Chilperic with his own hands. Chilperic's two daughters, Chrona and Clotilda, were exiled. Clotilda fled to Ravenna and and eventually wed Theodoric. Though later chronicles claim that Chrona entered a convent, her exact fate is unknown. As Chilperic had left no sons, there were no legitimate claimants to oppose Gundobad's incorporation of Chilperic's lands into his own. The threat of attack forced Godegisel to renounce his alliance with Theodoric and to accept Gundobad as his overlord.

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Excerpt from
Gothic Dawn
Pier Gamala
Luik, Kingdom of Frisia (1871)


Moving to Reunion


Comparisons are often made between the kingdoms of the Franks and Goths with amateur histories wondering why the Goths succeeded while the Franks struggled. Both faced similar challenges with similar resources. The proximal reason is that the Goths enjoyed the support of their Roman subjects while the Franks were at perpetual odds with theirs. But this only begs the question: why were the Goths accepted by their Roman subjects, but the Franks were not? Religion is one obvious answer. The Goths were Christianized, thought Arian, while the Franks remained pagan well into the Sixth Century. However, this apparent commonality is overblown. The Visigoths (more so than the Ostrogoths) often oppressed their Catholic subjects. What is often overlooked is the continuity the Romans experienced during the transition from Roman rule to Gothic rule. The Visigoths, especially Euric and Alaric II, co-opted the Roman bureaucracy. This culminated with Alaric's Breviary which codified Roman law for his Roman subjects. Alaric also lessened his father's policies of persecution against the Catholics. Of course, relations were not always peaceful, especially between the Gothic nobility and the Catholic hierarchy, but relations were generally better than those in Frankish lands. As a result, the Roman and Germanic societies in Gothic lands moved from opposition to tolerance, acceptance, and, eventually, assimilation. In contrast the two societies in Frankic lands continuously grew further apart and often clashed violently.

...


The Ostrogoths enjoyed even more support from his Roman subject. Besides the factors in common with their Visigothic cousins, the Ostrogoths had Theodoric the Great. Theodoric was (or at least perceived to be) Emperor Zeno's representative in the West. For this he expected and received at least partial loyalty from his Roman subjects. Theodoric's close friendship with Pope Gelasius I garnered Theodoric more goodwill among the Romans even while Theodoric was still an Arian. One other factor must be remembered. Theodoric was raised in the court at Constantinople and had a better understanding of Roman politics of any of the Germanic kings. With this knowledge he was able to maneuver amongst the Italian nobles, bring them to his side, and rely on their strength. By the end of the Fifth Century, the Romans under Theodoric thought of him as their king.


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Excerpt from
Theodoric the Great and the Founding of Gozia
Daniel Cantona
Tolosa, Gozia: National University Press (2004)

Chapter 6: The Religious Arena
Chilperic's daughter Clotilda arrived at the court in Ravenna in 491. Two years latter, Theodoric took her as his second wife[1]. The marriage was primarily a political move. It gave Theodoric a claim to Burgundian crown and an excuse, should he choose to use it, to invade and annex the Burgundian lands. ... Clotilda was raised a Nicene Christian and her marriage to Theodoric again reassured the Romans that Theodoric did not plan to persecute them. ... Theodoric remained aloof with respect to the Nicene Church. On several occasions he refused to interfere in Church matters, preferring to refer the disputes to the local bishops or Gelasius. He did not, however, hesitate to intervene when conflict arose between different faiths. In particular, he is noted for having protected the Jewish inhabitants of Ravenna when tensions with the Nicene Christians erupted.

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Excerpt from
Eastern Roman Empire: Recovery and Resurgence
Marcion Bahram
Antioch, Syria: Tabari and Sons Publishing (1936)


Chapter 3: Zeno and Theodoric

Evaluations of Zeno's reign have changed over time. His contemporaries described him as slothful and apathetic, but these opinions overlook the long term effects of Zeno's policies. He left the army, treasury, and church in stronger positions than they were in when he ascended to the throne. The army benefited in the short term from the rest allowed by the removal of the Ostrogoths from Thrace and Moesia. A longer term improvement grew out of Zeno's campaign against the Isaurian rebels. In a twist of irony, Zeno, an Isaurian who made his name as a general, broke the power of Isaurian generals in the mobile army and strengthened imperial control. Zeno left the treasure fuller than he found it, though still lower than before the Basiliscus's disaster. Perhaps the enduring effect of Zeno's reign was due to the Henotikon. By propagating this act, Zeno laid the groundwork for restoring the unity of the Church in the Empire. Without it, religious tension between Chalcedonian Anatolia and Miaphysite Syria and Egypt would have increased, perhaps to the point of civil war. Instead, the unity of the Church would provide the basis for the unity of the Empire for centuries to come[2].

...


Emperor Zeno died 14 April 489 in Constantinople of a disease that was most likely dysentery. There was some debate as to who would follow him. Many, especially in Constantinople, feared that it would be Zeno's brother Longinus. As both a Miaphysite and Isaurian, it would have been difficult to find a candidate more despised by the people of Constantinople. Ariadne, widow of Zeno and daughter of Leo I, held a considerable amount of influence within the Senate and was able to convince them to recognize Zeno the Younger as Emperor of Rome. She also managed to have her favored courtier Anastasius named regent. The transition was not entirely peaceful, but no true crisis developed.


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[1] Little of Theodoric's first wife is known. It is known that she was an Ostrogoth, and that they were married before Theodoric left Moesia. Her fate is unknown.

[2] Bahram overlooks the negative effects of the Henotikon. In particular, it lead to the Acacian Schism and strained relations with the Church in the West.
 
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