White Russia vs Nazi Germany

What if the communists end up being defeated in the 1917 revolution, Lenin and more importantly Stalin never take power in Russia. Assuming that Hitler still rises to power in Germany, how does he view Russia without the communist menace? The big question what happens when Nazi Germany goes to war with a non-communist Russia?
 

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What if the communists end up being defeated in the 1917 revolution, Lenin and more importantly Stalin never take power in Russia. Assuming that Hitler still rises to power in Germany, how does he view Russia without the communist menace? The big question what happens when Nazi Germany goes to war with a non-communist Russia?
As has been said in these types of PODs before, the existence of the USSR was a key reason the Nazis even formed and got political traction; it is hard to see the Nazis rising without the Soviets.
 
Exactly what @wiking said, without the USSR the rise of a far right party, or at the very least the NSDAP, is almost unimaginable. You would have to have a severe butterfly net.
 
Let's say the Soviet state still rises in 1917, but is defeated by the Whites around 1920. In that scenario,
-Germany has still been defeated and is teeming with discontent and revanchism against the nations to the east.
-The economic problems faced by interwar Germany are still in the picture.
-Radicalized veteran militias are still in the picture.
-The new Russian government might even have some vague socialist aspects. And either way, it can act as a bogeyman to German nationalists because of its key position in the new order. Not to mention the traditional chauvinism against eastern Europe.
-The Soviet state is defeated, but it was around long enough to give certain sectors of society a nasty shock. Together with the threat of increasingly popular socialist movements, this could make these sectors of society willing to fund and support political, er, alternatives.

In these circumstances, I don't see why the rise of a far-right party in Germany should be considered impossible. Much less likely, maybe, but far from impossible.

 
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In these circumstances, I don't see why the rise of a far-right party in Germany should be considered impossible. Much less likely, maybe, but far from impossible.

The rise of a far right party isn't impossible, but the rise of the Nazis in such a case seems impossible to me at least.
 
The rise of a far right party isn't impossible, but the rise of the Nazis in such a case seems impossible to me at least.

I guess the exact specifics of the Nazi rise aren't likely to repeat, which does leave a lot of room for different outcomes. But in what ways did the political profile of the NSDAP (up to 1933) differ from a more "generic" far-right type?
 
I guess the exact specifics of the Nazi rise aren't likely to repeat, which does leave a lot of room for different outcomes. But in what ways did the political profile of the NSDAP (up to 1933) differ from a more "generic" far-right type?

Basically the populist, vaguely socialistic rhetoric and special emphasis on anti-semitism (though this wasn't as unique as some people like to say it was.) A lot of the "generic far-right" types in Germany that weren't Nazis were very anti-semitic themselves (ie Ludendorff).
 
I guess the exact specifics of the Nazi rise aren't likely to repeat, which does leave a lot of room for different outcomes. But in what ways did the political profile of the NSDAP (up to 1933) differ from a more "generic" far-right type?

The Nazis had a particular vision of conquering Eastern Europe to settle it with German farmers, gradually exterminating the local population. They believed this was necessary for the spiritual, physical, and cultural survival of the German people.

Other far-rightists in Germany didn’t necessarily share this vision—Werner Von Fritch, for example, who was the architect of the invasion of Poland and was known for his hatred of democracy and the Jews, was very strongly in favor of maintaining the Weimar-era partnership with the USSR. The view that fascist Germany and the USSR were natural allies was actually rather common in Germany before the Nazis’ rise to power.

A ‘generic’ German fascism can be oriented in any other direction—the restoration of the African colonies, Alsace-Lorraine, or ‘just’ limiting itself to Pan-German annexations in Czechoslovakia and Italy.

As such, I tend to agree that if any party besides the NSDAP takes over Germany, a German-Russian alliance is likely.
 
Leaving aside the digressions over no nazis & other questions...

The core of the OP asks

.. The big question what happens when Nazi Germany goes to war with a non-communist Russia?

nazi Germany may not even get to war with Russia. The Communist government of the USSR was the principle obstacle to a alliance from the French PoV. Even with that several French governments held their nose and made attempts to seek some sort of arraignment. Absent Bolsheviks the successive French governments would have been doing all they could the replace the 'Little Entente' with a restoration of the pre 1918 Franco Russian alliance. While its possible a extreme Facist Russian government could have rejected that in favor of a Russ/German alignment any others are going to find growing problems with a German government that has a vision of enslaving the Slavs.

By March of 1939 it was clear only a fool could trust the nazi government. If there is not already a Franco Russian anti German defense treaty it's going to be signed swiftly. At that point the German leaders have a choice, start a war with no significant allies & two major enemies, or sit still & behave. Is the German army going to make the choice here, or ride out the impending train wreck?
 
Basically the populist, vaguely socialistic rhetoric and special emphasis on anti-semitism (though this wasn't as unique as some people like to say it was.) A lot of the "generic far-right" types in Germany that weren't Nazis were very anti-semitic themselves (ie Ludendorff).
IIRC the difference is probably that the farthest a "generic" far right might go with the Jews is basically Nuremberg Laws. Basically Jews as a despised minority, subject to the occasional pogrom, but nothing of the scale of killing all of them. Not to mention they'd be slower at it.
 
The Nazis had a particular vision of conquering Eastern Europe to settle it with German farmers, gradually exterminating the local population. They believed this was necessary for the spiritual, physical, and cultural survival of the German people.

Other far-rightists in Germany didn’t necessarily share this vision—Werner Von Fritch, for example, who was the architect of the invasion of Poland and was known for his hatred of democracy and the Jews, was very strongly in favor of maintaining the Weimar-era partnership with the USSR. The view that fascist Germany and the USSR were natural allies was actually rather common in Germany before the Nazis’ rise to power.

A ‘generic’ German fascism can be oriented in any other direction—the restoration of the African colonies, Alsace-Lorraine, or ‘just’ limiting itself to Pan-German annexations in Czechoslovakia and Italy.

As such, I tend to agree that if any party besides the NSDAP takes over Germany, a German-Russian alliance is likely.

I'm familiar with the basics of Nazi ideology. I was rather asking about the Nazis' position within the Weimar political system. As in, their path to power, and why exactly would "generic" fascism have an advantage over the Nazis here.

You make some good points. However, I don't think a German-Russian alliance is likely. The USSR was a pretty natural ally to any revanchist Germany because it was also strongly committed to tearing down the new map of Europe. But a White Russia would not be committed to tearing down Versailles and such; if anything, it will be a partner of the Entente, and even actively interested in upholding the new order.
 
I'm familiar with the basics of Nazi ideology. I was rather asking about the Nazis' position within the Weimar political system. As in, their path to power, and why exactly would "generic" fascism have an advantage over the Nazis here.

You make some good points. However, I don't think a German-Russian alliance is likely. The USSR was a pretty natural ally to any revanchist Germany because it was also strongly committed to tearing down the new map of Europe. But a White Russia would not be committed to tearing down Versailles and such; if anything, it will be a partner of the Entente, and even actively interested in upholding the new order.

Perhaps, but if the record of the OTL Whites is any indication, they and Germany will see eye-to-eye on the matters of Poland and the Balts. It depends, I suppose, on whether France values Poland or Russia more.

Yeah, that’s not even a question. Poland will have it extremely tough ITTL. Maybe even worse than OTL on balance—Lenin didn’t invent gulags and the Cheka from nothing, after all.

I wonder where Turkey fits into this. They’d be a natural enemy of White Russia, if that country is still interested in the straits.
 
I repeated it many times-White Russia would still be allied to France, at the same time Russia would quarrel with UK in Central Asia (return to Great Game) so there would be rift between France and UK and British-German reconciliation.
Republican Russia already accepted Polish independence as it was clear from decades that Poland is burden for Russia, only determining border would be problematic, but without experience of 1920 invasion Poland would not take so much in the East like IOTL. Riga borders were intended to keep Soviets as far from Warsaw as possible, because another Soviet attack was expected in the future. Polessia and Volhynia were not worth much otherwise-underdeveloped, with few Poles. Costs of keeping administration there was higher than revenue from taxes (taxation of population that rarely uses money is not easy). Thus Polish-Russian reconciliation should be far easier to achieve than Polish-German.
 

raharris1973

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Let's say the Soviet state still rises in 1917, but is defeated by the Whites around 1920. In that scenario,
-Germany has still been defeated and is teeming with discontent and revanchism against the nations to the east.
-The economic problems faced by interwar Germany are still in the picture.
-Radicalized veteran militias are still in the picture.
-The new Russian government might even have some vague socialist aspects. And either way, it can act as a bogeyman to German nationalists because of its key position in the new order. Not to mention the traditional chauvinism against eastern Europe.
-The Soviet state is defeated, but it was around long enough to give certain sectors of society a nasty shock. Together with the threat of increasingly popular socialist movements, this could make these sectors of society willing to fund and support political, er, alternatives.

In these circumstances, I don't see why the rise of a far-right party in Germany should be considered impossible.

A lot of excellent points here.

The far right, including Nazis or something close could still get a boost from the Red Scare and season of revolutions.

Plus, the concept of a war to conquer the east has some plausibility even in a White Russian victory scenario because the Germans will have the idea, "we beat them before and can beat them again" and could be tempted by the goal of reclaiming all winnings of Brest-Litovsk or more.

It is at least more likely in a situation when there was a Red revolution and then a White counterrevolution than in a situation where there is no Red revolution and the Russians never quit or got pushed east of the Pripet Marshes.

But a White Russia would not be committed to tearing down Versailles and such; if anything, it will be a partner of the Entente, and even actively interested in upholding the new order.

I think a White Russia is a lot less handicapped in allying with France or Britain than a red one, but, there still could be distaste for alliance with each other because of its poor results in WWI and possible disagreements over the Polish border. And, all are probably not eager to get into a war with Germany, and may have a desire to avoid fighting Germany at all costs even if that means encouraging the fight to go in another direction.
 
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... And, all are probably not eager to get into a war with Germany, and may have a desire to avoid fighting Germany at all costs even if that means encouraging the fight to go in another direction.

That option was DOA in March 1939. From that point no political leader could trust the nazi government. The Soviet government attempted it & were presented the lie just like the Czechs, and the Poles, the Danes, Norwegians, Yugoslavs, Greeks, & all the way up to Chamberlain who had multiple guarantees from Hitlers government.
 

raharris1973

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That option was DOA in March 1939. From that point no political leader could trust the nazi government. The Soviet government attempted it & were presented the lie just like the Czechs, and the Poles, the Danes, Norwegians, Yugoslavs, Greeks, & all the way up to Chamberlain who had multiple guarantees from Hitlers government.

That doesn't guarantee one or more of the containing powers might not try it. Or that they couldn't gravely harm their ability to form a timely coalition by appearing to try to freeload off each other and playing hot potato with German aggression.

...and isn't specifying things down to the month like that and the string of Nazi promises assuming too precise a similarity with OTL?

While I'm arguing that an aggressive Nazi, or Nazi-like, government could still rise in a defeated Bolesheviks scenario, it would be a stretch to say Berlin is making *All* the same foreign policy moves at *All* the same times.
 
Even leaving aside the butterflies, it’s still impossible to say since White Russia could be anything from a social democracy to a fascist autocracy and everything in between with a unknown degree of functionality.
 
I think a White Russia is a lot less handicapped in allying with France or Britain than a red one, but, there still could be distaste for alliance with each other because of its poor results in WWI and possible disagreements over the Polish border. And, all are probably not eager to get into a war with Germany, and may have a desire to avoid fighting Germany at all costs even if that means encouraging the fight to go in another direction.

I think that, with a White Russia in the picture, France and Britain would give very little (if any) support for Poland's eastern ambitions. The Great Powers would probably have no (major) conflicts over the issue, and as a result the Polish eastern border would be somewhat to the west. But I don't have any conclusive arguments for this hunch.
 

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Isn't there a high chance that under capitalism or social democracy Russia's industrial development would be focused on light industry and not heavy? That's less useful for armored warfare later if that becomes necessary.
 
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